Album of the week: Sonny Rollins: Sonny Meets Hawk

[AfricaBrass]

The Album of the Week for May 18-24 as picked by pryan is:

Sonny Rollins - Sonny Meets Hawk! (click to buy)

The Album of the Week works this way, the person who picks the cd for this week will nominate the person who will pick the cd for next week. pryan picked this week's title and nominated Red to pick the album for May 25-31 (he's already picked it and it will be: The Quintet at Massey Hall).

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Past albums of the week:

May 11 - 17: John Coltrane - Olé

May 4 - 10: Andrew Hill - Grass Roots

April 26 - May 3: Weather Report - Black Market

April 13 - 26: Lee Morgan - Live at the Lighthouse

April 6 - 12: Charles Mingus - Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus

March 30 - April 5: Wayne Shorter - The All Seeing Eye

March 23 -29: Donald Byrd - Byrd in Hand

[Guest Mnytime]

This is a great recording (IMHO) and I really think it is Bean that cuts Newk. Even though it was Newk's intention to cut Bean and Bean need Bley to help him know when to jump in. Bean not only holds his own he shows Newk why he was King for all those years. Everytime Newk tries to fuck with Bean's mind Bean comes back with his own in reply, which pushed Newk to try something else to get the old man with.

The way they are playing I get the impression they where telling each other

Newk-Yea you where the man once but I am the man tonight old man.

Bean-You maybe be good you young wiper snapper but I am still THE MAN and Dont You Forget It!

Newk-Take This and Isn't it time for you to be geting SSI

Bean-Is That All You Have? You better go back to that Bridge for a few more years.

And so on.

Paul Bley plays incredibly himself. Especially on "All Things You Are". Bley's solo on this is one of his best of many great solo's in a great and long career.

A classic even though I think I am one of the few that think Bean stole this recording.

[Late]

The Japanese remaster (in mini-LP format) of this album is staggering. One of the best-sounding discs I own.

This is my favorite Rollins studio session. I hear it less as a cutting session than as a meeting of two generations — one, a sort of mentor (Hawkins), the other a sort of student (Rollins). I've always thought that Hawkins' was, in a way and I guess ironically, following Rollins' lead. Newk, to be sure, is letting his "avant garde" inclinations dominate his playing here, and I hear in return Hawkins pushing his own boundaries.

I imagine that Newk was probably just a little nervous for this gig. He's recording with his idol, and likely doesn't want to sound like him. So, what does he do? In my perception, he tries his damnedest to improvise figures that are anything but like Bean. And, for me, this pays off handsomely. There is a creative tension in Newk's playing here that one doesn't always hear — in large part because Newk's mastery is always so total: confidence brims in his lines. On this date, however, I hear something different. His improvisations have an edgy (in a positive way) hesitation: he's forcing himself into territory that he's necessarily never fully explored. And that is precisely why I think his improvising here (in the studio) was never matched in quite the same way. Whereas Saxophone Colossus displays authority and youthful vigor, Sonny Meets Hawk displays a curious, and wonderful, uncertainty that ultimately (in my opinion) translates into some inspired thinking. In my book, this is the most forward-looking Rollins on record, and I wish he would have kept pushing himself in this direction.

[Guest Mnytime]

Late

Everything I have read about this recording including from Bley was that Rollins went into this recording to cut his idol.

[JSngry]

A classic even though I think I am one of the few that think Bean stole this recording.

And I'm one of the few who thinks that when it reaches THIS rarified level, there are no "winners". Should the old guy be considered a winner because he didn't get snuffed by the kid, or should the kid be considered a winner because he was able to reach the heights of the old master and hang without being hung? I keep coming back to a Rollins quote from the ...CONTEMPORARY LEADERS album liner notes - "I have a lot of respect for the art, you know, and for the tradition. Jazz is a thing that is only built upon what has happened before. It doesn't begin with any one guy. The greatest anybody can be is just as great as what has come before, and to be great you have to be steeped in what has happened."

I suppose there's a lot of different ways to interpret that "The greatest anybody can be is just as great as what has come before" bit, but I've always taken it to mean that the standards were set with the originators of the music, and that no matter how new or advanced further developments got, that they still could only be as good as the originators, that newer does not equate with better. That's a surprisingly humble (and accurate, imo) assessment coming from somebody who at the time was considered one of the leaders in advancing jazz towards new heights and depths, as well as somebody performance practices can often be descibed as eccentric to the point of self-indulgency, albeit self-indulgency of often astounding creativity and insight, which raises the point - is there an element of selfishness that is NECCESSARY to allow the creative process to occur to its fullest potential? I think there is, and I think that Rollins pursued some of his more extreme directions, not out of ego, but instad out of a desire to not be fooled by the ego gratification that comes with being rewarded for doing what you already know you can do. There's always more to do, more to learn, more that you don't know, and acknowledging that require nothing if not humility. Following up on it, though, requires a bit of selfishness to keep you on course when the howls of outrage and/or confusion that inevitably follow a "name brand" exploring the unknown reach fever pitch. The fine balance between selfishness and selflessness that is required in any creative pursuit has not often enough been dealt with, imo opinion, and it should be.

The above comment by Rollins was made in 1959, and by the time this album was recorded in 1963, Newk was no longer consider the Hot Young Gun In Town, In many circles, he was actually considered old fashioned, although how anybody could consider the games he was playing with time, harmony, and tone in those days as "old fashioned" is beyond my comprehension. So Sonny in 1963 might very well have at times felt like Hawk felt around 1953 - angered about being precieved as somehow "irrelevant", and perhaps having a bone to pick about proving that it wasn't so. Hawk had been around that block more than once, so his attitude was probably one of at once instinctively rising to the challenge while at the same time saying "Welcome to the club", and handing the kid a cigar and a snifter.

Interesting also is to compare this session to the Hodges-Carter-Parker Jam session made for Norman Granz, or even the Bird/Hawk Granz date. The "tenor battle" is such a tired cliche in jazz, but otoh, there is a real basis for it. Something about the instrument that attracts VERY strong personalities not afraid to put their talents on the line against other members of the brotherhood. I don't know of any "alto battles" (althought there is a moment on one thing I forget the name of where Lee Konitz "speaks" to Jackie McLean in McLean's own "language" that is totally bone-chilling). Probably a books worth of speculation is awaiting the matter of the tenor psychology...

All told, a fascinating record, a great record, perhaps even an "essential" record, even though, other than as part of a mid-70s French 2-fer Rollins series, this album WAS NOT AVAILABLE IN AMERICA from the late 60s up until its first CD issue in 1990. Is this criminal? Damn straight it is, but what else is new?

Here kid, have a cigar and a snifter.

(LOVE your imagined dialogue, btw. Probably not at all that far off.)

[Alexander Hawkins]

I'll come back with more on this one. Just to say at the moment, though, that the end of 'Loverman' is absolutely extraordinary, the way Rollins just disappears into the stratosphere. A moment of truly transcendental playing. I never know what to make of this passage when I listen to it, except that every time it sounds like something incredibly profound is happening.

p.s. Jim, I found your post really interesting and instructive! That mention of the Bird/Hawk session was spot on, to my mind.

[Chuck Nessa]

Also understand. you must take all "quotes" by Paul Bley with a grain of salt. Paul is an aquaintance of mine (for about 30 years) and though he's a great artist, he has agendas. The first one is Paul.

[JohnS]

The best AOTW so far. As my interest is mainly fifties and later jazz my collection is not overflowing with Coleman Hawkins records but to my unaccustomed ears he sounds on fine form, especially on the standards. Rollins is perhaps more audacious than usual, even by his standards, his more staccato playing contrasting nicely with Hawk's more flowing style. They pick up on each others nuances on a few occasions and you can frequently hear where Sonny is coming from in Hawk's playing.

Bley, a favourite of mine, accompanies sensitively and takes some adventourous solos. Both Cranshaw and Grimes give fine swinging support, Grimes coming into his own on the fast McGhee(on my cd, At McKie's on some other issues). McCurdy moves everything along nicely too.

This cd warrants repeated listenings-I've played it a lot over the last few days and there's still more to hear. Highly recommended.

[Late]

Paul Bley has agendas? Wait, are those Annette's hands, or ... ?

That photo actually comes from an interesting site. Some of my favorite Bley recordings therein. I've read elsewhere about Bley's (sometimes curious) comments, namely that he only listens to his own records. I couldn't tell if he was serious or not. Doesn't diminish the fact, of course, that he's an amazing pianist.

Red, nice call on "a moment of truly transcendental playing." I'm struck the exact same way. When I reach for this recording, it's always because of Rollins' playing.

I love Coleman Hawkins too, but when I want to dig Bean, I reach for something else — right now it's his 30's work with Benny Carter's orchestra. In fact, a great solo of Bean's to check out from this time is on "Crazy Rhythm." Recorded in 1937 in Paris, Bean, in his brief solo, plays some wild lines that almost seem to prophesy what Newk would play nearly 30 years later. Not just incidentally, I suppose, was Bean The Daddy of the Tenor Saxophone. His 30's work strikes me just as transcendentally as Newk's 60's work. Cut, uncut, those two (I like to think) had to have had a good laugh afterward: cigar smoke, scotch in hand, maybe even Bean considering a mohawk.

[AfricaBrass]

This is a great pick, pryan!

I was hoping this would get more votes when I put it up for my album of the week poll.

I've just started listening to it and I'm really digging it.

I love the album of the week because it's great getting to hear everyone's opinions about it. I've really been focusing on different things in my listening.

I'll post later when I've heard it a few more times.

:rsmile:

[JSngry]

David S. Ware's version of "Yesterdays" on flight of i is based very strongly on Rollins' solo. It's my opinion that the Rollins of the 60s, understandably overlooked (somewhat) and overshadowed in its time, continues to have growing relevance to post-Coltrane jazz. Henry Threadgill, for one, is on record somewhere as saying that he dug Rollins more than Trane in the 60s (or at least found him more musically and personally relevant. I can't remember the exact quote). When one listens to what Rollins was doing with, for instance, his tone in those days, or his phrasing, it seems, to me at least, that there ws much fertile ground being plowed, ground that the sheer overwhelming power of Coltrane did not allow for.

Really - has anybody playing in Trane's style, or a derivation thereof, REALLY found any new places to take it? I'll not call t a "dead end", because that makes it sound like a negative comment, and such is definitely not the case (obviously, I hope). But if Trane "closed the book" on certain improvisational options, Rollins OPENED some doors that a lot of folks might have missed at the time.

Something that is no doubt trivial in the extreme but I nevertheless find interesting for some reason is that the the "squeals" that Sonny uses at the end of "Lover Man" are not THAT dissimilar to the ones that Jackie McLean was using at the time. In fact, Rollins would incorporate a much more blatant McLean-esque squeal in the early 80s (it's all over NO PROBLEM). No real point to this, but I just think it's "cool" that 2 guys who grew up in the same neighborhood would have the same approach and sound to a saxophonistical squeal.

I know, get a life...

[Alexander Hawkins]

I love Coleman Hawkins too, but when I want to dig Bean, I reach for something else — right now it's his 30's work with Benny Carter's orchestra. In fact, a great solo of Bean's to check out from this time is on "Crazy Rhythm." Recorded in 1937 in Paris, Bean, in his brief solo, plays some wild lines that almost seem to prophesy what Newk would play nearly 30 years later. Not just incidentally, I suppose, was Bean The Daddy of the Tenor Saxophone. His 30's work strikes me just as transcendentally as Newk's 60's work. Cut, uncut, those two (I like to think) had to have had a good laugh afterward: cigar smoke, scotch in hand, maybe even Bean considering a mohawk.

I know what you mean about 30's Bean - another one which is really far-out for the time is that tune cut, I think, with Red Allen - 'Queer Notions'.

The more I listen to Loverman, the more completely astounding it gets. That Rollins at the end... Mind you, I'm going to have to listen to it more to find something constructive to say about this album. I'm so captivated by it at the moment that all I could offer just now would be a) consternation at how two men could be so inventive and B) more generally, just effusive praise!

[Late]

"Queer Notions" is a great tune. If we're thinking of the same recording, I believe it was made under Fletcher Henderson's name (though Red Allen, of course, was part of that orchestra). Love the whole tone scales!

Side note: The best-sounding version of that track that I've come across is actually on the Ken Burns' Fletcher Henderson disc.

Another side note: I guess Hawkins couldn't really have contemplated a mohawk. He was already doing his Cleanhead impression at the time.

[Alexander Hawkins]

Late - you're right; it was the Fletcher Henderson one I was trying to think of!

Edited May 20, 2003 by Red

[John Tapscott]

I gave the album a spin yesterday and it reminds me of the first rule of tenor saxophone playing: No matter who you are, don't go head to head with Coleman Hawkins. Certainly Rollins plays very well as he follows Bley down a slightly more abstract path. But Hawkins holds his ground and shows everyone why he is the king of the tenor saxophone.

It's a terrifc album overall.

[BruceH]

One of the best versions of "All the Things You Are" I've ever heard! Personally, I like this album quite a bit more than The Bridge and almost as much as "Way Out West" (which is saying a lot). Bean is amazing, really rising to the occasion. It is rather dumbfounding that it wasn't available in the US for some years, until the CD release. I had it on a vinyl French two-fer. Thank God for the French---they do love the jazz.

Edited March 6, 2007 by BruceH

[pryan]

I must concur with Bruce - this is one great version of 'All the things...'. Bley's solo really stood out for me (not discounting the other solos one bit, mind you, they kill too), considering what MOST other pianists were into at that time (I know, a broad generalization to be sure), it still seems very fresh today. Or maybe it just does to me 'cuz I don't really have any of Bley's stuff. Also, I do hear some things that Bley does - both rythmically and harmonically - in Brad Mehldau's playing (coincidentally, Mehldau also does a trio version of 'All the things', on his ART OF THE TRIO, vol. 4 album; might be an interesting comparison). Mehldau does seem to take some of Bley's ideas much 'further', however. BTW, what's a good starting point in Bley's discography?

I will also agree with Jim's comment that no one 'wins' the so-called cutting contest. These two masters are simply inspiring one another to even greater heights of improvisational expression, and the result is a delight for anyone caring to listen at even a cursory level. Close listenings, however, reveal INTENSE happenings.

'Yesterdays', for instance, is just so emotionally charged and seems to transport me to another place, not earthly, but elsewhere; I can't really put it into words, maybe it's just the tune, I don't know.

That's all for now, more later perhaps.

Edited May 23, 2003 by pryan

[Late]

This has been a good discussion. Let's keep this up! (I have a few ideas for album of the week. How does one go about getting nominated to nominate an album?)

Pryan, if you're looking to start a Paul Bley collection (at least one or two discs), I strongly recommend picking up Bley's Closer. An amazing trio album, with Bley really pushing the limits of piano improvisation for the time, and within small time frames. (All the tunes are around the 3 minute mark.) This is one album that I think Penguin nails in its review. The version (the original?) of "Ida Lupino" is very moving. I return to this one a lot, and never get tired of it.

Then, if you like Closer, go for Turning Point, which adds John Gilmore on tenor. Beautiful, beautiful playing.

[Soul Stream]

Haven't listened to this one in a while. My reaction has always been one of nominal enjoyment. Paul Bley and Rollins just seem to be going out of their way to be "out" on this one. A little more middle ground would have been nice. There's just too much dislocation between the two concepts of the tenors to be anything but jarring at times. This would have been a better outing IMHO if it had been done 5 years earlier. Rollins is putting on someone else's avant guarde clothing here and it doesn't fit him or Bean too much.

[pryan]

Well, I'd have to disagree with you, Soul Stream, on a couple of points. While I can't comment on Bley's playing being 'overtly out' for the time, I don't think Sonny's playing is all that 'out'. Sure, he develops some motifs or ideas that are not of the usual hard-boppish variety that one may be used to, if one only had heard Rollins' playing of the mid to late fifties, but I think his playing displays a definite 'eye' toward his future work. The held high note at the end of 'Lover Man', for instance, kind of previews his technique that he used in the seventies and eighties, of really getting a high pitched tone or 'squeal' (BTW, that was a good insight, Jim, by comparing the 'squeals' of Jackie and Sonny, and that they both grew up in the same neighbourhood).

I've noticed other stuff in his (Sonny's) playing on this date that surely previews his later albums. There was one point in one of the ballads (not sure which one), where Sonny played a motif that came up again in 'Cabin in the Sky', from his PLUS 3 album, also included on the Silver City 2-disc set.

I like the contrasts between conceptions, it's not jarring but refreshing to hear the differences in each player's ideas, tone, etc. To me, if this date had been done five years earlier, it would've lost something. By the time this date was arranged, I think (just speculation here, no real facts, although there might be something in Eric Niesenson's [sp?] book) Sonny would have incorporated some of the 'new wave' ideas, particularly those of Ornette and Don Cherry (who, coincidentally would come to join Rollins' group, albeit for a relatively short time).

That leads me to another point (well, a question actually): What to y'all think of the added three tunes at the end of the disc (for those of you who have the recent re-issue)? I actually enjoy them, but find it kind of strange why the producer would add those instead of, say, a couple tunes from the live date where Hawk appeared with Newk (although maybe that wasn't recorded, hard to believe, or it had to do with the rights, etc.). The liner notes say the tunes aren't an accurate portrayal of the band, due to the short timings of the tracks; still, I found it interesting to hear Cherry 'playing changes' on more standard tunes.

Edited May 23, 2003 by pryan

[jazzbo]

These are great recordings. . . . I've gone over this before elsewhere, so I'll just say I prefer Bean's playing to Newk's on this (both play amazingly), and I love the rhythm section; wish this section did a lot of albums!

A classic!

Edited May 23, 2003 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

And Jim, thanks for bringing up that quote from Sonny. I'd forgotten about that one. THIS analysis of yours THIS time around of THIS session is as good as THE OTHER ONES!

[Alexander]

I've been lucky so far: Every single disc nominated has been one I already owned! I hadn't heard this one in a while, and it was indeed welcome. While Sonny's playing might seem a little far-out for some tastes, I don't find it in the least bit jarring. Knowing how proud Bean was, Sonny is stepping up to the plate and pointing to the bleachers. He then proceeds to knock one out of the park, challenging Bean to do the same. The result is some of Hawkins' most powerful playing in years. He sounds inspired by Rollins. The rhythm section crackles with electricity. Bley does some fine work here, and Grimes is amazing (Cranshawe is great too, but Grimes just runs away with the whole album). The bonus tracks on the CD, featuring Rollins with Don Cherry, and more curiosities than anything else, but they are not without charm.

[Soul Stream]

When Sonny takes Hawk's trill at the end of his "Yesterdays" solo and begins to wring the life out of it, I guess that's when I got the impression that this might not be my favorite recording. In a way, I admire what Rollins is doing. On the other hand, musically, it's not working for me. Such is the case also when Paul Bley starts his "All The Things You Are" solo in the most avant fashion after Hawk has made a nice traditional jazz statement. To me, it's jarring. Interesting, maybe. Sonny follows Bley with a rather broad distortion of the tune. Nothing wrong with that, I usual love that sort of thing and do here. But, to me, it just seems like Hawkins is sittin' in with the kids and they are making "their" statement and not really functioning as a musical counterpart to Hawk.

Great Sonny record since the band's going his way. Seems to me like Hawk is getting muscled out throughout the whole thing. Call it musical prodding by Rollins and crew. Maybe it did get some of the best playing from Hawk. He certainly shines when he does play.

This record may grow on me and be one of my favorites eventually. That DOES happen a lot. But for now, I'm just trying to give an honest viewpoint.

[JSngry]

...kind of strange why the producer would add those instead of, say, a couple tunes from the live date where Hawk appeared with Newk (although maybe that wasn't recorded, hard to believe, or it had to do with the rights, etc.).

Allegedly recorded, allegedly still in the can, allegedly at Rollins' demand.

Also allegedly in the can at RCA - hours, literally hours (some rumors have the figure in double digits) of unreleased stuff from the Villiage Gate/OUR MAN IN JAZZ dates, again being forbidden from release by Sonny's refusal.

Lucille is likely to get some pretty interesting offers when the dark day comes...