Errors and Contradictions in the Bible

[Big Al]

  b3-er said:

In fact, I asked her a couple months before she died when she was talking about people not being saved and going to hell whether she honestly thought that all the Hindus and Buddhists and other religions that don't believe in Jesus, whether all those billions of people are going to hell? Does that sound right to you, if they had led good lives and lived honestly and cared for their families and were truly good people? She admitted it didn't make much sense.

I had this conversation once with the mother of a friend of mine. I asked her basically the same thing, only her answer was more direct: she believed that only Christians were going to heaven; no one else. I didn’t think of it at the time, and I wish I had: so then, why does Jesus say, in John 10:16 “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.” I’m no theological scholar, but it seems to me that He’s referring to the “good folks” you mention. Why this verse isn’t bandied about more often by religious folk is beyond me. This, to me, is one of the more hopeful verses throughout Scripture.

  Quote

Another instance that made me lose my religion was someone very close to me coming out of the closet.  Whether we like it or not, the Bible does condemn homosexuality.  Once I got out of my small world and met homosexuals and became friends with them, as well as had that close person come out, I realized that such discrimination is worthless and evil.  Homosexuals are good people who only want love and happiness, just like everybody else.  That's why the whole argument against gay marraige irks me so... it is all based on religion.  There is not one non-religious argument why we shouldn't allow homosexual marraige.

I won’t pretend to know what you’re going through, or what this person went through. I can only surmise that something happened in a church, rejection of this person, very likely. But I can offer two examples of the heart of Christ at work:

1) At my church, we have a pair of lesbians who have adopted two little girls from Guatamela. They are at church EVERY Sunday, and are very active in the church. Their oldest daughter is one of the loveliest children in the world, very pleasant and unbelievably snuggly (plus, she absolutely glows when she giggles!) Now, I’m sure there are people in my midst who disapprove of their coming to church, but they are few and far between (and anyhow, why SHOULDN’T they be welcome into a church? If someone is gonna say they’re such horrible sinners in the first place, I would think that the FIRST thing they would do is invite them to church.). For the most part, these two are embraced and loved by everyone they come in contact with.

2) My sister belongs to a church in Austin that is part of the “Reconciling in Christ” community. (See the brochure here. It’s on the left). They have an AIDS Outreach ministry. This church is even more open to gays & lesbians than my church is!

My point is, there are many MANY churches out there who welcome gays & lesbians with open arms. Staying away from the cold rigid legalistic churches is easier than finding the loving open churches, I’ll grant you that; but for my money, finding them is worth the search.

  Quote

And societies overall bigotry towards homosexuals stems from religion and fear.  Fear of the unknown.  And the whole basis of Christianity to me seems to be fear.  Fear of going to hell.  Fear of God's wrath.  Fear of not knowing what happens when you die (Oh, you go to heaven... how comforting!).  I will not base the foundation of my life on such shaky ground as fear.

Religious people (Christian or otherwise) may use fear, but I guarantee that the basis of Christianity is love, despite the efforts of some of its so-called followers to practice otherwise.

Look, I’ll be honest: I’ve rarely personally been exposed to the bad side of a church, though I know it exists. (I guess that’s one of the perks of being Lutheran: we basically don’t care, we just wanna see you in Heaven.) And as I said, I cannot even begin to imagine what this person you know went through. Any rejection of him is wrong, IMHO, and it angers me deeply when people who call themselves Christians reject or condemn a person because of their sexuality. Why isn’t this kind of condemnation being leveled at adulterers?

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

I came into work this morning at my part-time gig at the library. I wanted to get a drink from the vending machine, but I didn't have change. Being the good employee that I am, I asked my boss if she'd give me change for a fiver. She just pointed me to the cash register and said "I trust you." So I go to the register and get myself five ones in exchange for my five dollar bill (doing this could have gotten me fired at B&N, but the library is more trusting). No one was looking. I could have swiped a little more cash out of the drawer, but honestly the thought never even occurred to me. Now why not? If I don't believe that stealing is a "sin" and I could have gotten away with it, why not help myself to a little extra? First of all, I didn't steal because to do so would be to abuse the trust of my employer, and that's the last thing I want to do. Secondly, I recoginze that if we all just helped ourselves whenever we felt like it, we'd end up with chaos. So I don't do it. Would I steal if I were starving and I had to feed my hungry family? I probably would, but that's an extreme circumstance. Under ordinary conditions, I don't need to steal and so I CHOOSE not to steal. Similarly, I choose not to cheat on my wife, I choose not to cheat on my taxes, I choose to donate money to charities, etc. I choose to do good and not to do evil not because I seek heavenly salvation or fear divine punishment, but because I am a human being who has to live in cooperation with other human beings. Observing these rules of conduct allows our society to function, and makes my relationships with others more pleasant. I don't steal for the same reason I vote or hold the door open for a stranger: because it's a part of being a member of society. John Donne (a man of God, no less) said it best: "No man is an island, complete unto himself...every man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind." That philosophy is very important to me. It's a part of my creed as a socialist, that we are all involved in mankind and therefore have a severe obligation to take care of each other.

As to why I am so passionate about my atheisim, it's very simple: You know how you feel when you say that you are into jazz, and someone says that they love jazz too, but then mention how much they love Kenny G? And you want to cure them of their delusion by exposing them to REAL jazz? It's the same thing with me and religion. My wife and daughter and I live a deeply contented life with satisfying interests and fulfilling work, and we do it all without God. And when I see people deluding themselves with religion I want to scream, "You don't have to do that! You can be a good person and find happiness and not bow down before something that isn't there!" I don't know what it is. Stupidity has that effect on me, I guess. I do believe that as human beings we can do better. At the end of the day, I am an idealist. Just as socialism is an ideal for me (a world without private property where no one is hungry or homeless), so too is atheisim (a world without holy wars and discrimination against homosexuals and women, where people live for today and not dreaming of an alleged hereafter). Am I passionate about it? Damn straight I am. I believe in human beings. I believe that a better world is there, outside of our reach for the moment. And one thing we need to do in order to fulfill our potential is cast aside superstition. There is wonder in the natural world. There is terror and magnificence in the universe beyond the wildest dreams of the God of Exodus. Does it really improve a sunset to believe that God made it? Isn't all the more beautiful knowing that it just IS?

  Quote

These religious have provided (and still provide) the rationale for compassionate behavior but also for hatred, bigotry, and brutal inquisitions, wars, crusades, pogroms, and holocausts causing untold misery and countless millions of deaths."

So let me see if I got this right...

People who choose to live in society by exactly the same moral code as you do but have a belief in "something beyond" are stupid? People who make the same behavioral choices as you do but have a belief in "something beyond" are stupid? People who freely acknowledge that what they believe is simply that, a "belief", not a fact, are superstitious and deserving of scornful mocking, or at best condescension, but those who disagree w/o being any more able to conclusively prove their beliefs are rational beings of superior intellect? You would, in your ideal world, strip these people, people who would live their lives in society exactly as you choose to live yours, of their personal belief system and impose yours upon them because it's better and truer?

You hate religion (hatred) enough to think that anybody who finds a place for it in their life is stupid (bigotry), and would love nothing more than to see it's removal from these people's lives, no matter the consequences to their psyche (untold misery), is that what you're saying?

What is this, atheistic fundamentalism? No "brutal inquisitions, wars, crusades, pogroms, holocausts, and countless millions of deaths" in this scenario, but that's just because you're a good guy. No gurantees that it will always be so.

What's that line about hating the most in others what we hate the most in ourselves?

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

[take5]

I'm being nasty?! Is it because I called you a satanist, or claimed you have no morals or ethics, or "whine like a girl?" Oh, wait, who did that?...

You wanna accuse me of bitching? Fine, I didn't realise this was the "jazzypaul preaches is bullshit" thread, so I'll let you have the last word, as anything I say, especially when it exposes the obvious gaps in your reasoning, you pretend to be insulted by. Obviously, there is no reasoning with you about this. Have fun.

But wait, that Evil Satanic Bully I in me has to leave with one parting shot:

This worshipping of no-God concept: quaint. The fact that you can seriously claim that someone can worship the lack of something just demonstrates how you can't grasp the basic principles of logic.

I'll leave you to your fanatical worshipping of no-leprechauns.

[JSngry]

So, we have an atheist (no, not you Alexander, you're just a fundamentalist zealot KIDDING!) and a believer both indulging in behavior that in some environments would get them both called assholes.

People have choices, choices of a totally free will, in how they behave, and that includes how they handle being offended. Neither religion nor a lack thereof creates assholes. An asshole is gonna be an asshole no matter what they believe.

This is all getting to be some kindergarten-playground B.S.

Have a potato. There's enough to go around.

Edited August 27, 2004 by JSngry

[Noj]

God cannot be proven to exist, and cannot be proven to not exist (scientifically). It is moot.

I am completely on the fence, and I choose to stay there since it is the most rational decision. I will neither believe nor disbelieve. The argument will never be won, all go to the grave guessing. I'm big on proof--I choose not to decide.

I sincerely hope there is a God, so that I might one day extend my gratitude.

It is difficult for me to differentiate Christianity from any other religion--I associate it with human history and art history and mythology at this point of my life.

I once attended a Christian church with a friend that preached of a very loving God and a loving Christ and told me I am "a beloved child of God." I'd like to believe that, it sounds very nice. Unfortunately I can't give it any more weight than a God who'd say I'm a born sinner.

Very nice people at that Church fwiw, it is called Unity. People of all creeds and nationalities and ages--very warm and friendly, every last one of them.

[Jazzmoose]

Yep, stay on the fence, Noj; no matter which side you jump off on, there's a bunch o' mean angry dogs snapping at your heels!

[Free For All]

  Noj said:

Very nice people at that Church fwiw, it is called Unity.  People of all creeds and nationalities and ages--very warm and friendly, every last one of them.

My wife attends Unity regularly, and I join her from time to time. Of course the Unity "headquarters" is located near here in Lee's Summit. Plus they feature a lot of varied types of music- the local Unity here has a jazz series. I might try to play there sometime. When I walk into church and hear "All the Things You Are" I think "Yeah, this might be OK!"

As someone who has been resistant to belonging to a specific church, I really like the the nurturing approach of the Unity church. At any service there is a varied ethnic mix, and many gay as well as non-gay couples. That feels right to me, it seems like a very positive Christian vibe. Everyone together. Celebrating blessings. No heavy guilt trips. Works for me!

Edited August 27, 2004 by Free For All

[RDK]

Is it too late to believe in Odin, Thor, and those other kickass Norse gods?

Their comic books were the shit...

[Noj]

  Free For All said:

  Noj said:

Very nice people at that Church fwiw, it is called Unity.  People of all creeds and nationalities and ages--very warm and friendly, every last one of them.

My wife attends Unity regularly, and I join her from time to time. Of course the Unity "headquarters" is located near here in Lee's Summit. Plus they feature a lot of varied types of music- the local Unity here has a jazz series. I might try to play there sometime. When I walk into church and hear "All the Things You Are" I think "Yeah, this might be OK!"

As someone who has been resistant to belonging to a specific church, I really like the the nurturing approach of the Unity church. At any service there is a varied ethnic mix, and many gay as well as non-gay couples. That feels right to me, it seems like a very positive Christian vibe. Everyone together. Celebrating blessings. No heavy guilt trips. Works for me!

Great representatives for Christianity. Unity has all the best intentions, "nurturing" is an apt description.

I went to the North Hollywood Chapter. Reverend Sheila Bantam (I think, it's been years). Kind, well-spoken lady--red hair, very fair, British accent. Hip sermons.

[Alexander]

  JSngry said:

So let me see if I got this right...

People who choose to live in society by exactly the same moral code as you do but have a belief in "something beyond" are stupid? People who make the same behavioral choices as you do but have a belief in "something beyond" are stupid? People who freely acknowledge that what they believe is simply that, a "belief", not a fact, are superstitious and deserving of scornful mocking, or at best condescension, but those who disagree w/o being any more able to conclusively prove their beliefs are rational beings of superior intellect? You would, in your ideal world, strip these people, people who would live their lives in society exactly as you choose to live yours, of their personal belief system and impose yours upon them because it's better and truer?

My point (and I do have one) is that it is possible to live a full and happy life without God or Christ or the Easter Bunny (but then who would bring the chocolate bunnies?). You should try it sometime!

The part I don't understand, I guess, is that I've been backwards and forwards through the Bible a number of times (as a well-informed atheist I like to know what I don't believe) and its provoked no reaction in me other than scorn. What is it that perfectly reasonable people (such as yourself, Jim) find comforting and/or enlightening about this particular book? Any play by Shakespeare is better written. Any one of Plato's dialogues is more enlightening. I can think of at least a hundred books I'd rather spend my time reading (including comic books) than the Bible. It doesn't inspire me. It doesn't enlighten me. Do you have to be raised with it, or what? It's an amusing read, and certainly important in terms of understanding the mess Judeo-Christian thinking has made of the world in the past 2000 years, but it failed to leave me with that warm fuzzy feeling that Jesus loves me. So what am I missing? Am I supposed to be touched by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross? Dude, I've noted a number of times that I'm far from convinced that Jesus ever existed, so his alleged "death" does nothing for me. Besides, dead-Jew-on-a-stick never did anything for me.

Have you seen pictures of fundamentalist congregations on TV? They look like zombies all waving their hands in the air with their eyes shut. I can't help it, Jim, if I think they look like suckers. Wasting so much time, money, and mental energy on something that isn't real. Why don't they go home and read a GOOD book?

And I'm sorry, it's far easier to prove that God doesn't exist than proving that he does. Look around you. Where is God? I can't see him. I can't hear him. He wasn't there for 3000+ people on 9/11/2001. What the fuck good is he? Infinite power and he can't stop two planes from crashing into a building? I mean, if there was a time to prove he existed with a little action, that was it. Where was the miracle? Where was the parting of the Red Sea on that day?

Here's a possibility: He wasn't there on 9/11 because he never was there. Man created God in his own image. And he did a pretty crappy job of it too.

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

My point (and I do have one) is that it is possible to live a full and happy life without God or Christ or the Easter Bunny (but then who would bring the chocolate bunnies?). You should try it sometime!

I have. Didn't stick. But neither did the literality I had been raised with. So I though/felt for myself. Stupid, I'm sure, but hey...

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

The part I don't understand, I guess, is that I've been backwards and forwards through the Bible a number of times (as a well-informed atheist I like to know what I don't believe) and its provoked no reaction in me other than scorn.

Fair enough. Hasn't been like that for me.

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

What is it that perfectly reasonable people (such as yourself, Jim) find comforting and/or enlightening about this particular book?

Already covered that. Wasn't trying to change anybody's mind, merely presenting my feelings in the context of the discussion.

And, contrary to orthodoxy, I feel absolutely no "obligation" to "convert" anybody, because I'm fully aware and sensitive to the fact (at last, a fact!) that the way I'm experiencing all this stuff is strictly personal, and that your milage can and will vary considerably.

All I can tell you is that it's real for me, not intellectually, not even "emotionally", but real in a fundamental way that I can't explain.

Does that make me stupid? Fine, I'm stupid. I can live with being stupid better than I can live with not being true to myself.

I'm sure that you can appreciate that, right?

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

Any play by Shakespeare is better written.  Any one of Plato's dialogues is more enlightening.  I can think of at least a hundred books I'd rather spend my time reading (including comic books) than the Bible. It doesn't inspire me. It doesn't enlighten me.

To somebody else, any Victoria's Secret model is more "beautiful" than my wife, and I'm sure that you could think of any number of women with more dazzling and entertaining personalities. But they don't inspire me the way she does, and they for darn sure don't stir the deepest feelings of love in me that she does.

You would have me leave my wife? I don't think so.

Would you get all worked up and proclaim to anybody who would listen that I'm a fool for staying with my wife? I don't think so.

Let me try this one more time - this whole thing is a personal experience, and if I discuss it in public, it's at the level of me saying that I love my wife and I'm thankful for our relationship. Nothing more. You would do the same, right? I'm not about to tell you that my wife is better than your wife, or that you're an idiot if you can't see how great my wife is, or that no matter how happy you are now, you'd be happier with a wife like mine.

If it bothers you that I love my wife, that's your problem. Of course, I'm sure that it doesn't, but if it bothers you that there are other personal elements of my total experiental makeup that you either don't like or don't understand, well...whazzup w/THAT?

Edited August 28, 2004 by JSngry

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

Do you have to be raised with it, or what?

I don't know.

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

It's an amusing read, and certainly important in terms of understanding the mess Judeo-Christian thinking has made of the world in the past 2000 years...

Well, there's more than a few books of the Old Testament that are important in terms of understanding Bob Dylan's best work (those are actually my "favorite" books of the Bible), but I digress...

Seriously, I could agree more here. However, I also believe the canard that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, and I can't help but see a pattern in the Old Testament of a culture thriving when they live in a state of humility and falling apart when they don't. Now, that stroy is posed in terms of that culture's relationship with a "God" that comes across pretty hevy handed and petty sometimes, but that's not the point. The point is that this Gangsta God is also the source of this culture's life and sustenance.

So, hey, if the ultimate lesson is that you best live in a state of respect and humility towards that which gives you life and sustains it (the latter is easy enough to define, but the former is a bit thornier, at least in a macro sense) or else some bad shit is gonna come down on you, well, who can really argue with that? You can argue all you want with all the ways that that basic lesson has been distorted and corrupted over the centuries (and if you don't call me stupid, I'll be glad to help you out on that one), but I don't hink that you can argue with that core lesson.

Sorry, but THAT'S what I get out of the Bible, Old Testament style.

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

but it failed to leave me with that warm fuzzy feeling that Jesus loves me. So what am I missing? Am I supposed to be touched by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross? Dude, I've noted a number of times that I'm far from convinced that Jesus ever existed, so his alleged "death" does nothing for me.

Cool. Leave it be then. Doesn't work for you.

What I get out of it is again a lesson or two. One is that there's a difference between being "in the world" (hello, Clifford!) and "of the world", and that the pressures to be "of the world" inevitably lead to conflict with those who truly are of it, and that the root of the conflict lies in the demand to lose a bit of that humility towards that which gives you life and to go ahead and give all the props to people who are living a life that comes from the same place as yours. Yeah, sure, make a show of "worship", but reduce it to a set of laws and rituals, and claim exclusivity and superiority (in this regard, the parallels between Judaism in Christ's time and Christianity in ours are more than a little striking, proof yet again that la plus ca change....).

If you challenge that with a simple notion that, uh, no, EVERYBODY comes from the same place, and that whatever wordly success we have doesn't do one damn thing to alter THAT fact, well, it's going to piss people off. Maybe to the point that they try to destroy you in some form or fashion. Maybe they'll even succeed. But it's ok if they do, because blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah

You've heard it all before and it doesn't work for you. So you're not missing anything.

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

Besides, dead-Jew-on-a-stick never did anything for me.

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

Have you seen pictures of fundamentalist congregations on TV? They look like zombies all waving their hands in the air with their eyes shut. I can't help it, Jim, if I think they look like suckers.

Yeah, they do. And a lot of them probably are. That's what happens when you let people take an intimate experience and turn it into a spectacle. Sorta like porn, ain't it.

[Alexander]

  JSngry said:

  Alexander said:

Have you seen pictures of fundamentalist congregations on TV?  They look like zombies all waving their hands in the air with their eyes shut.  I can't help it, Jim, if I think they look like suckers.

Yeah, they do. And a lot of them probably are. That's what happens when you let people take an intimate experience and turn it into a spectacle. Sorta like porn, ain't it.

THAT, my friend, is a VERY wise statement...

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

And I'm sorry, it's far easier to prove that God doesn't exist than proving that he does. Look around you. Where is God? I can't see him. I can't hear him. He wasn't there for 3000+ people on 9/11/2001. What the fuck good is he? Infinite power and he can't stop two planes from crashing into a building? I mean, if there was a time to prove he existed with a little action, that was it. Where was the miracle? Where was the parting of the Red Sea on that day?

Proof? Sorry, don't have any.

As to where "he" and "his" "miracles" are/were, hell if I know. I don't look at "god" as some kind of bodyguard who's going to keep bad things from happening to good people and good things from happening to bad people. That's that whole anthromorphic projection thing again, and I can't go there. People can do any damn thing they want to, and quite often get by with it...

That's what happens when you lose that humility.

[JSngry]

  Alexander said:

  JSngry said:

  Alexander said:

Have you seen pictures of fundamentalist congregations on TV?  They look like zombies all waving their hands in the air with their eyes shut.  I can't help it, Jim, if I think they look like suckers.

Yeah, they do. And a lot of them probably are. That's what happens when you let people take an intimate experience and turn it into a spectacle. Sorta like porn, ain't it.

THAT, my friend, is a VERY wise statement...

Hey, even the stupid have their moments.

[JSngry]

I could go on, but I've inflated my post count enough for one night.

Dude, I have no reason whatsoever to doubt that you are a truly kind and loving human being, and I have no problems whatsoever with you having and living by your personal belief system. But these grand, unnuanced pronouncements of yours about the "stupidity" of those who feel things that you don't are beneath you, and your fantasies about eliminating religion from the world because you know it's wrong are simply the stuff of fundamentalist zealotry. Pure and simple.

Cut the crap, ok? You're better than that.

Edited August 28, 2004 by JSngry

[JSngry]

  Noj said:

I sincerely hope there is a God, so that I might one day extend my gratitude..

If you have it, it's already extended, no?

[Jazzmoose]

  JSngry said:

So I though/felt for myself.

Good grief, man...don't get caught at that!!!