Duke: how did he keep all those great musicians

[White Lightning]

How the Duke was able to keep all those talented musicians in his bands for so many years?

Was it just the music? the pay? Was he a more flexible band leader?

THNX!

[Dmitry]

My take - $.

In some cases $$$[i.e. Hodges].

[Dan Gould]

I think for a time pay had a lot to do with it, because wasn't it true that Duke used his composer's royalty payments to keep the band on salary even when there were no gigs?

[jazzbo]

In a filmed interview with Duke in the late or mid sixties he was asked what "gimmick" he used to keep his band together.

He said that he used. . . MONEY. He referred to his orchestra members as "these expensive gentlemen."

I think that the fact that he had a steady employment for decades for a group of guys that got their way as much as they wanted to most of the time on the road and on the stand was a testimony to his loose but sly leadership, his dispensation of MONEY, the state of affairs in big band employment, and a few other factors . . . .

MONEY would be the main answer, in a few cases I think personal loyalty contributed to longevity in the band.

Edited August 6, 2004 by jazzbo

[ghost of miles]

I also think actually that musical satisfaction must have played a part, in addition to the money and the relief from the hassles of trying to lead your own band (Hodges, Williams, etc.). As great as these guys were on their own, I think that Duke did, in some cases, solicit even better performances from them within the context of the Ellington band.

[White Lightning]

Wheren't they bored to play basically the same repertoir night after night in all those one nighters?

It can't be just the dough...

[JohnS]

I don't know but I feel that he didn't treat the guys like shit.

[John Tapscott]

I'm sure money had something to do with it, but I'm going to be a bit cynical here and say - these guys wouldn't have lasted in any other band. Who else but Duke would have put up with the sparring (verbal and otherwise) between Cat Anderson, Cootie Williams and Ray Nance? (Eventually Duke had to send Ray back to the US after he had a terrible row with Cootie overseas). A friend of mine once saw Ray making toast on the bandstand as the curtain rose. Gonsalves sleeping on the stand every night and having to be prodded by the bassist when his solo turn came (didn't Gonsalves last 2 weeks with Tommy Dorsey's band?), Hodges making a fool of Ellington every night on stage, with his implied demands for more money as the crowd applauded. And oh yes, Hodges demanding to be paid in cash afte every night's job, Cat's tendency towards kleptomania, Lawrence Brown's aloofness, and on and on. These guys were great musicians, but where else could they have worked steadily?

[jazzbo]

Well, Duke was supposedly sort of lax in his management of the band, that is he let some behaviors go on unimpeded that other bandleaders probably wouldn't, managed to cultivate a sort of private club atmosphere that was hell on newbies (and some newbies didn't make it for the long run) and which probably induced those that fit in well to stay. . . .

And I think the music wasn't always just the same ole same ole night after night. There was regular infusion of new material and new arrangements (most likely it appears in batches) and there was the fly by the seat of your pants thing that a lot of the studio dates (many of which were just for "the stockpile") seem to have been. . . . I think that they had a lot of fun, were occasionally challenged, and were paid well. . . .

EDIT: I was typing while John was and he's mentioning specifics that I was alluding to. . . .

Yes, some of those guys could and would have been fired really quickly from other bands!

Edited August 6, 2004 by jazzbo

[ghost of miles]

Well, Duke was supposedly sort of lax in his management of the band, that is he let some behaviors go on unimpeded that other bandleaders probably wouldn't, managed to cultivate a sort of private club atmosphere that was hell on newbies (and some newbies didn't make it for the long run) and which probably induced those that fit in well to stay. . . .

What's the skinny on Mingus' brief 1953 stay with the band?

[jazzbo]

He and Tizol got into arguments that were ultimately racially related. . . . Mingus' buttons were well-pushed and he apparently threatened Tizol with a knife either in rehearsal or actual performance. Ellington delicately fired Mingus, saying basically that Charles was new, Juan was an established good ole boy in the band, Charles had to go. . . .

[White Lightning]

He and Tizol got into arguments that were ultimately racially related. . . . Mingus' buttons were well-pushed and he apparently threatened Tizol with a knife either in rehearsal or actual performance. Ellington delicately fired Mingus, saying basically that Charles was new, Juan was an established good ole boy in the band, Charles had to go. . . .

Wasn't a machete somewhere in that fight?

[brownie]

Tony Scott also had problems with Mingus when he played in the Ellington band in 1953. From the Tony Scott website:

http://www.tonyscott.it/

''In 1953, for three months, he played flute, tenor and alto sax with Duke Ellington’s Big Band, initially replacing Paul Gonsalves (ts), then Johnny Hodges (as).

…But clarinet wasn't selling. Tony started playing more tenor and also flute. When Duke Ellington had a tenor vacancy, and chose to add the flute color for the first time, he hired Tony who opened with the band at the Apollo Theater. Another great clarinetist with the band, Jimmy Hamilton, along with Charlie Mingus and a few others, did their best to make him uncomfortable. Duke kept reassuring him, but one day Tony provoked Mingus who was making racial remarks. "Look, Mingus," Tony said, "my skin is darker than yours. I'm Sicilian and I have more African blood than you do." Mingus was a big strong guy with a violent temper. He tried to strangle Tony and might have succeeded, if Clark Terry and Britt Woodman, trombonist, hadn't jumped in and saved him. When the Apollo month was finished, Tony quit the band-regretfully, because he worshipped the Duke. Unfortunately, he never recorded on clarinet with the band. (from: IAJRC summer 2000: Tony Scott: Some reminiscences of a best friend by Bill Simon)''

[jazzbo]

Yes, I guess a machete and a fire axe were involved, according to Tony Scott! More about Tony on the subject of Duke's bandleadership and bandmembers:

Duke had that ability to evade issues. If you had to face the issues he faced you'd be a raving maniac. He had 17 men continually pulling in different directions, and the three months I was with the band it didn't swing. They were looking for a drummer and I almost put in Philly Joe Jones but he didn't make it, he got hung up, and detained involuntarily in Philadelphia, because of mistaken identity by the narcotics squad. Philly threw his drugs out of the window. He was put in jail for his needle marks. Ellington could make everything into a purple ice-cream soda. he had all these guys grumbling.

He was sitting in front of the bus, imagine these eight-hour trips, sun comes up he'd be the first one the sun hits his eyes.

Part of his genius, if not 90 per cent was travelling. I did three months of it and I had a tic in my eye. Duke and his band, it was like being around a man and wife who're always nagging at each other but stay together. They owed him and he owed them, and they couldn't really settle the bill. When I first started with them I couldn't find numbers.

Quentin Jackson called out numbers for me because when Duke started a number he never announced it. They all knew them. Quentin. Clark Terry and Britt Woodman were the only ones who were nice.

They told me 'When we go South, be an Ethiopian.' we'd stop at a place to eat, counter service, and we'd order hot dogs hot dogs hot dogs. I said, 'I'm not gonna eat a hot dog. I'll wait till we stop at a restaurant and eat' I get on the bus and say, 'Hey, when we stop and eat?' and somebody says, 'That was it, man' Hot dogs! Now these are jazz musicians that you hear hitting high notes and strong solos and all, and you say WOW -what ENERGY! and they 're doing it on hot dogs, right. I say, 'That was it?' and Jimmy Hamilton says- 'Yeah, man, it's every livin' ass for himself down here.'

So I run into the white section and grab me two apples and a chocolate bar, run into the bus. Jimmy Hamilton sees the apples - 'Hey, gimme an apple, man' - and I say, 'Man, it's every livin' ass for himself down here.' I learned quick.

I got in an argument on the bus with Mingus one time. He says, 'You white people are always telling us how to talk.' I turned round and said, 'I'm darker than you are, Mingus.' Mingus is about my colour, I'm Sicilian and he had a lotta white blood in there more than I had. He was trying to prove he was a black man, and I took his negritude away. he came up behind me - I had Bebop glasses on - and he strangled me, one hand around my throat and one over my eyes.

Britt and Clark pulled him off. Britt wouldn't look at him after that, and Mingus said, 'Man, I must've stepped on my dick.

My best friend won't look at me.' I was there when Mingus had that big to-do with Juan Tizol - it's in Beneath The Underdog. Juan with a machete, Mingus with a fire-axe. Duke had to fire him. Duke said to Mingus 'Look, Juan Tizol is an old problem. Why don't you resign? You're a new problem.'

©Tony Scott: Lady, Bird and Me

[JSngry]

it was like being around a man and wife who're always nagging at each other but stay together

There you have it, as far as I'm concerned.

Love ain't always pretty, but it's the strongest force in the world.

[chris olivarez]

I suppose that last explanation nailed it as good as any. How else can you explain such a dysfunctional aggregation staying together.

[Spontooneous]

As for the question of where the $$$ came from...

I once had the privilege of interviewing Mercer, about 1991. He said the band was still going at that point because of a wealthy patron. I couldn't delicately ask who the patron was, but I'm guessing he was talking about Helen Oakley Dance. Can anybody confirm or deny?

[B. Goren.]

My take - $.

In some cases $$$[i.e. Hodges].

I think I have to tell my boss about Duke Ellington.

[White Lightning]

When you think of it, I think that a part of the answer is found in the live recordings:

Many times you hear playing the piano long interludes before the entire band comes in with the A train. I think that indicated that some of the musicians were late comers.

It's not a one time thing - you hear it in many of the live recordings.

Now - how many bandleaders you know that shows up on the stage BEFORE his musicians? Usually the entire band is on stage and then the Bandleader makes an entrance, right?

If all these suppositions are correct, we're talking about a VERY lenient Boss!!!

Add that to the $$$ and the fact that Duke and Stray wrote parts for the particular players, which allowed them more room for there musicianship - and voila!

What do you think?

[king ubu]

I have a recording from the Sixties, where it seems Gosalves was late on stage. As soon as he did show up, Duke called two numbers that heavily feature him...

Thanks for sharing the Scott things! Very interesting read!

Funny enough, Britt Woodman comes away very good, and as much of a nice person as Scott says, in Mingus' "Beneath the Underdog."

ubu

[White Lightning]

I have a recording from the Sixties, where it seems Gosalves was late on stage. As soon as he did show up, Duke called two numbers that heavily feature him...

Probably a Ducal punishment

[king ubu]

I have a recording from the Sixties, where it seems Gosalves was late on stage. As soon as he did show up, Duke called two numbers that heavily feature him...

Probably a Ducal punishment

Seems he was not the only one with this tactic - Basie applied it, too...

[Alon Marcus]

how did he keep all those great musicians

I think that a part of the answer is in the question itself !

They were great cause Duke kept them.

[JSngry]

I have a recording from the Sixties, where it seems Gosalves was late on stage. As soon as he did show up, Duke called two numbers that heavily feature him...

Probably a Ducal punishment

Seems he was not the only one with this tactic - Basie applied it, too...

One of the funniest Ellington moments is on ALL STAR ROAD BAND VOLUME 2, I think it is, where Hodges is most likely waaaaaay drunk. Duke calls on him to play these ballads, snd the poor guy is WOBBLY like a mofo. Not enough for the spectators to notice, but if you know Rabbit, you can hear that he's struggling just to stay between the lines, much less drive straight.

[BERIGAN]

I've read that Cab Calloway paid more than Duke did, so it can't just be money, and they toured all the damn time , a real physical and mental grind....I also think there was more discipline than one might think there was,(Didn't he have a "ray" like Goodman did?) but the guys still had some freedom.... he didn't like to fire people, that will keep folks around too....

Edited August 13, 2004 by BERIGAN