What exist on record of Coltrane on alto?

[Hardbopjazz]

He began in Dizzy's band on alto then moved on to Hodges' band still playing alto, what recordings exists?

[EKE BBB]

-1945 sessions with Jimmy Johnson big band & US Navy Band (rejected at their time);

-1946 sessions with Dexter Culbertson´s Navy Band

-recordings with Dizzy Gillespie Orchestra (1949) and Sextet (1950)

-Gene Ammons All Stars sessions on 1958?

[EKE BBB]

And:

JOHN COLTRANE QUARTET:

Personnel: John Coltrane, alto or tenor saxophone; Alice Coltrane, piano; Jimmy Garrison, bass; Rashied Ali, drums.

Location: Van Gelder Studios,Englewood Cliffs NJ

Date: February 15, 1967

Engineer: Rudy Van Gelder

a. "Sun Star" (AT) (J. Coltrane) 8:05

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

b. "Sun Star" (J. Coltrane) 6:05

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

c. "Stellar Regions" (J. Coltrane) 3:31

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

d. "Stellar Regions" (AT) (J. Coltrane) 4:37

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

e. "Configuration" (J. Coltrane) 4:01

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

f. "Iris" (J. Coltrane) 3:50

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

g. "Offering" (J. Coltrane) 8:20

Imp A9120; more

h. "Seraphic Light" (J. Coltrane) 8:54

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

i. "Tranesonic" (AT) (J. Coltrane) 2:48

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

j. "Tranesonic" (J. Coltrane) 4:14

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

k. "Jimmy’s Mode" (J. Coltrane) 5:58

Imp (CD) IMPD-169

NOTE: John Coltrane plays alto saxophone on both takes of "Tranesonic". The composition "Stellar Regions" was recorded a week later (February 22, 1967) as part of the Interstellar Space duet session, under the title "Venus". Titles for the different compositions from this session (with the exception of "Offering") were provided by Alice Coltrane. "Expression" was originally credited to this session but was in fact not recorded at this date. See the notes for a discussion.

(quoted from David Wild´s Wildplace)

Edited August 5, 2004 by EKE BBB

[EKE BBB]

And:

JOHN COLTRANE QUINTET:

Personnel: John Coltrane, soprano, alto, tenor saxophones, percussion; Pharoah Sanders, alto, tenor saxophone, percussion; Alice Coltrane, piano; Jimmy Garrison, bass; Rashied Ali, drums.

Location: 'Sankei Hall' Tokyo Japan

Date: 7/11/66

Engineer: Tokyo Broadcasting System Radio Technical Group

a. "Afro-Blue" (M. Santamaria) 39:10

Imp(J) YB 8508/8509/8510

b. "Peace On Earth" (J. Coltrane) 26:15

Imp(J) YB 8508/8509/8510 more

© . "Bass Introduction" (J. Garrison) 7:30

Imp(J) YB8508/8509/8510 more

d. "Crescent" (J. Coltrane) 41:45

Imp (J) YB 8508/8509/8510 more

e. "Leo" (J. Coltrane) :53

Imp(J) YB 8508/8509/8510 more

660722 JOHN COLTRANE QUINTET:

Personnel: John Coltrane, soprano, alto, tenor saxophone, percussion; Pharoah Sanders, alto, tenor saxophone, percussion; Alice Coltrane, piano; Jimmy Garrison, bass; Rashied Ali, drums.

Location: 'Kosei-nenkin Hall' Tokyo Japan`

Date: 7/22/66

Engineer:

a. "Peace On Earth" (J. Coltrane) 26:04

Imp(J) IMR-9036C more

b. "My Favorite Things" (R. Rodgers - O. Hammerstein) 56:14

Imp(J) IMR-9036C more

c. "Meditations/Leo" (J. Coltrane) 45:31

Imp(J) IMR-9036C more

NOTE:"Meditations" (660722c) refers to excerpts from that suite which introduce "Leo".

NOTE:"Meditations" (660722c) refers to excerpts from that suite which introduce "Leo".

(quoted from David Wild´s Wildplace)

[tonym]

There are probably loads more but I have one disc with Trane/Dizzy playing 'Coast to Coast'. Apparently the album was called Bebop Professors TOCD5626.

[medjuck]

There are 2 cuts of him playing alto on the Atlantic "Last Giant" 2 cd box set. One from 1946, one from 1952.

[Shrdlu]

then moved on to Hodges' band still playing alto

I'm pretty sure that he played only tenor with Hodges. And, frustratingly, few recordings exist with that lineup: about two tracks for Verve with no Trane solos, and I really can't even detect him in the mix.

[Shrdlu]

-1945 sessions with Jimmy Johnson big band & US Navy Band (rejected at their time);

-1946 sessions with Dexter Culbertson´s Navy Band

-recordings with Dizzy Gillespie Orchestra (1949) and Sextet (1950)

Perhaps some of these recordings are covered by the above posts, but are these reasonably easily available? I've never seen them anywhere, although I have come across the Rhino set (but didn't get it as I have all but the two early tracks).

[king ubu]

then moved on to Hodges' band still playing alto

I'm pretty sure that he played only tenor with Hodges. And, frustratingly, few recordings exist with that lineup: about two tracks for Verve with no Trane solos, and I really can't even detect him in the mix.

There's some airchecks or live recordings of the Hodges band, on some cheapo "Live and Rare" Coltrane disc I have. Long time since I listened to that disc, don't remember if there are Coltrane solos or not, will have to check that.

Coltrane plays alto on the two Gene Ammons albums he appears on.

ubu

[king ubu]

I see EKE already listed the Ammons date - sorry!

[EKE BBB]

-1945 sessions with Jimmy Johnson big band & US Navy Band (rejected at their time);

-1946 sessions with Dexter Culbertson´s Navy Band

-recordings with Dizzy Gillespie Orchestra (1949) and Sextet (1950)

Perhaps some of these recordings are covered by the above posts, but are these reasonably easily available? I've never seen them anywhere, although I have come across the Rhino set (but didn't get it as I have all but the two early tracks).

I´m afraid you won´t find any release for the first two:

1945

Jimmy Johnson Big Band

Henry Beckett, Henry Glover, Mose Williams (tp) Miff Cooper, Gino Murray (tb) John Coltrane, Calvin Marshall (as) Benny Golson (ts) Ray Bryant (p) Tommy Bryant (b) Jimmy Johnson (d)

Philadelphia, PA, middle 1945

unknown titles rejected

U.S. Navy Band

John Coltrane (cl, as)

Hawaii, December, 1945-July, 1946

unknown titles rejected

And for the rest, I don´t know about its availability, but here´s the discographical information:

1946

Dexter Culbertson's U.S. Navy Band

Dexter Culbertson (tp) John Coltrane (as) Norman Poulshock (p) Willie Stader (b) Joe Theimer (d) Benny Thomas (vo, 1,4,5,7)

Hawaii, July 13, 1946

1. Embraceable You 4 SP discs, not numberd

2. Ornithology -

3. Sweet Miss -

4. It's Only a Paper Moon -

5. Sweet Lorraine -

6. Koko 4 SP discs, not numberd, VideoArts Music [J] VAVJ 165

7. Now's the Time 4 SP discs, not numberd

8. Hot House 4 SP discs, not numberd, Rhino R2 71255

* Dexter Culbertson (4 SP discs, not numberd)

* The World According to John Coltrane (VideoArts Music [J] VAVJ 165)

* The Last Giant / The John Coltrane Anthology (Rhino R2 71255)

1949

Dizzy Gillespie and His Orchestra

Willie Cook, Don Slaughter, Elmon Wright (tp) Dizzy Gillespie (tp, vo) Matthew Gee, Charles Greenlee, Sam Hurt (tb) John Coltrane, Jimmy Heath (as) Paul Gonsalves, Jesse Powell (ts) Al Gibson (brs) John Acea (p) John Collins (g) Al McKibbon (b) Charles `Specs' Wright (d) Tiny Irvin (vo)

NYC, November 21, 1949

4316 Say When Capitol M 11059, Capitol [J] CR 8084

4317 Tally Ho -

4318 You Stole My Wife, You Horse Thief -

4319 I Can't Remember Capitol [J] CR 8084

* Strictly Be Bop / Dizzy Gillespie (Capitol M 11059)

* Jazz of the Forties - Hot VS Cool / Dizzy Gillespie, Lennie Tristano (Capitol [J] CR 8084)

1950

Dizzy Gillespie and His Orchestra

Willie Cook, Don Slaughter, Elmon Wright (tp) Dizzy Gillespie (tp, vo) Matthew Gee, Charles Greenlee, Sam Hurt (tb) John Coltrane, Jimmy Heath (as) Paul Gonsalves, Jesse Powell (ts) Al Gibson (brs) John Acea (p) Floyd Smith (g) Al McKibbon (b) Charles `Specs' Wright (d) Carlos Duchesne (cga) Francisco Pozo (bgo) Joe Carroll, Tiny Irvin (vo)

NYC, January 9, 1950

4330 Coast to Coast Capitol M 11059, Capitol [J] CR 8084

4331 Carambola Capitol [J] CR 8084

4332 Oo-La-La Capitol M 11059, Capitol [J] CR 8084

4333 Honeysuckle Rose Capitol [J] CR 8084

* Strictly Be Bop / Dizzy Gillespie (Capitol M 11059)

* Jazz of the Forties - Hot VS Cool / Dizzy Gillespie, Lennie Tristano (Capitol [J] CR 8084)

Dizzy Gillespie Sextet

Dizzy Gillespie (tp) John Coltrane, Jimmy Heath (as) Milt Jackson (vib) Percy Heath (b) Charles `Specs' Wright (d)

Chicago, IL, middle 1950

Nice Work If You Can Get It private tape

A Night in Tunisia -

Emanon -

1951

Dizzy Gillespie Sextet

Dizzy Gillespie (tp) John Coltrane (as, ts) Milt Jackson (vib, p) Kenny Burrell (g) Percy Heath (b) Carl ``Kansas'' Fields (d) Fred Strong (vo)

Detroit, MI, March 1, 1951

4010 We Love to Boogie Regent MG 6043, Savoy MG 12204, Rhino R2 71255

4015 Tin Tin Deo Dee Gee 3601, Savoy MG 12047

4020 Birks' Works -

* School Days / Dizzy Gillespie (Regent MG 6043)

* Dizzy Gillespie - Milt Jackson - Joe Carroll (Savoy MG 12204)

* The Last Giant / The John Coltrane Anthology (Rhino R2 71255)

* Tin Tin Deo/Birks' Works / Dizzy Gillespie (Dee Gee 3601)

* The Champ / Dizzy Gillespie (Savoy MG 12047)

[EKE BBB]

And here´s one more I´ve found:

1952

Gay Crosse and His Good Humor Six

James Robertson (tp) John Coltrane (as, ts) Gay Crosse (ts, vo) Charles Ross (p) John Latham (b) Charles `Specs' Wright (d)

Philadelphia, PA, January 19, 1952

GC1 Fat Sam from Birmingham Gotham 279

7GC1 Fat Sam from Birmingham (alt. take) Gotham 7279, Krazy Kat [E] KK 838

Bitter Sweet private tape

7GC2 - Gotham 7279, Rhino R2 71255

GC2 Bitter Sweet (alt. take) Gotham 279

Slow and East private tape

No Better for You -

* Gay Crosse Sextet (Gotham 279)

* Fat Sam from Birmingham/Bittersweet / Gay Crosse (Gotham 7279)

* Stompin' with Bill / various artists (Krazy Kat [E] KK 838)

* The Last Giant / The John Coltrane Anthology (Rhino R2 71255)

Edited August 6, 2004 by EKE BBB

[Joe]

The Ammons material is spread across these two releases:

THE BIG SOUND

GROOVE BLUES

[JSngry]

The Navy recordings were braodcast in toto on WKCR not too terribly long ago. Recordings of the broadcast are circulating amongst collectors.

[ghost of miles]

Several of the Gay Crosse sides show up on a Bear Family box that covers the 1945-55 Nashville R & B scene. (Some Phineas Newborn on it as well.)

The best example of Coltrane soloing with Hodges (IMO) comes from a June 1954 California dance date. THE LAST GIANT uses "Thru the Night" from that performance, but an even better example is Coltrane's out-and-out gutbucket solo on "Castle Rock." Not sure what titles this date has circulated under, but it contains 7 tracks and is 29 minutes in length.

There's also a Coatsville Harris record from around this time that includes two Coltrane solos--but I'm getting off on an "early Coltrane R & B" topic here.

[JSngry]

Several of the Gay Crosse sides show up on a Bear Family box that covers the 1945-55 Nashville R & B scene.

I recall reading some pretty geeky Internet debate (if that's not a redundancy... ) over whether or not Trane was actually on those sides, but I forget who made the better case. Seems that I remember the "no"s doing so, but I could well be wrong.

[ghost of miles]

Carl Woideck makes a fairly convincing case that it's Coltrane on at least "No Better for You." Sounds like Trane to me as well... Trane definitely played with him, but there is still debate, as you said, over which, if any, recorded sides he may have made with the Crosse band.

[Shrdlu]

Thanks for posting the long discography, EKE. It would be great to hear all these, and also the airshot of "Castle Rock" with Rabbit - no doubt Trane runs rings around Al Sears (who soloed on the famous Verve original of this, for those who don't know this piece).

It sounds as if we have a mini Mosaic in the making.

[David Ayers]

Lonehill were going to do a John Coltrane The Complete Alto Episodes collection but were unable to secure all the rights they needed and decided it would be unethical to issue it.

My jokes are laborious, I know.

[EKE BBB]

Lonehill were going to do a John Coltrane The Complete Alto Episodes collection but were unable to secure all the rights they needed and decided it would be unethical to issue it.

My jokes are laborious, I know.

Don´t give´em ideas...

[medjuck]

Hey we forgot one: Cannonball was sick when they shot "the Sound of Miles Davis" tv show so Trane plays alto on the 3 Gil Evans numbers. So if you get a copy of that, you not only hear Trane playing alto (you have to listen pretty carefully) but you can see him.

[Niko]

Not exactly on topic, but I just stumbled across three new-to me photographs of Coltrane on alto here. Comparing with the Coltrane Reference, this is the Joe Webb Big Band with Big Maybelle in the second half of 1946 including Coltrane, Webb (leader), Rudolph Pitts (drums) and (up to some point on this tour) Cal Massey.  The article says that the pictures were taking at Joe's Playhouse in Jackson Miss., saxophonists are from left to right Emmit Patterson, Criss Williams, Coltrane and Louie Judge (Muhameed Habeeballah). 

[Mark Stryker]

Medjuck: I'm not sure I had ever heard that Cannonball wasn't on the show because he was sick. Do you have a source on that?

Here's the video. You can see Trane on alto as the camera pans on the opening "The Duke," but the best shot comes during the closer, "New Rhumba," at the 10:30 mark.

 

Edited March 11, 2017 by Mark Stryker

[Niko]

medjuck wrote that 13 years ago... the Coltrane reference confirms what he wrote (Cannonball missing due to illness, being replaced by Coltrane on alto), citing Downbeat as a source, apparently Adderley was ill for about 8 weeks ca mid-February to mid-April 1959

[Niko]

And a follow-up question... would anybody know whether one of the trumpeters in the third picture is Cal Massey?