Gregory Herbert

[ghost of miles]

Just got the VME of Gene Ammons/Sonny Stitt's BOSS TENORS IN ORBIT; in the liner notes, the writer cites a 70's saxophonist named Gregory Herbert, who died of a drug overdose at the age of 31. I'd never heard of him, but the writer was full of praise, so I pulled up his bio on AMG:

A potentially significant improviser, Gregory Herbert's involvement with drugs cut short his life. Herbert began playing alto when he was 12. He worked briefly with the Duke Ellington Orchestra in 1964 before studying music at Temple University (1965-71). He debuted on record with Pat Martino in 1968. Herbert left Temple University to tour with Woody Herman's Orchestra (1971-75) and he later played with the Thad Jones-Mel Lewis Orchestra (1975-77), Chuck Israels' National Jazz Ensemble and briefly with Blood, Sweat and Tears. But Herbert's great potential was cut short when he died prematurely, during a European tour with Blood, Sweat and Tears. Gregory Herbert never led his own record date but he was prominently featured on a set by the Harold Danko Quartet cut for Inner City in 1975.

Anybody else ever hear/hear of this musician?

[JSngry]

Sure. Pretty interesting player at times. He's on a bunch of the early/mid-70s Woody Herman albums on Fantasy, but to me his best work was on MEL LEWIS AND FRIENDS & Chet Baker's Artist House things.

I've heard stories that Herbert's addiction made him a real prick, even by junkie standards. One anecdote had him swimming in the ocean somewhere while on tour with BS&T (a band FULL of junkies in those long-past-their-glory days) when he began to flounder in the water. His bandmates heard his cries for help and asked each other what they should do. After a few moments silence, somebody said, "Let the motherfucker die". With that, they all turned and left.

Herbert recouped, but the tale is an indication of just how nasty the whole drug thing can get, and how badly Herbert got caught up in it. His best work is conservative-yet-probing (or vice-versa), with a pretty personal tone. It's also got a very real emotional ambivalence to it as well, which may or may not be a result of the drugs. That's a door not worth opening unless you knew the guy really, REALLY well personally.

[John Tapscott]

I saw Herbert several times with Woody Herman in the early '70's and he was a hot tenor player. I think his best work is on Herd at Montreus on Fantasy which I believe is now on CD. He is the featured soloist on three lengthy tracks on that album. Woody obviously and rightfully thought he was a major talent. As I recall, when he was about 18 years old he substituted briefly for one of the Ellington saxophone players.

[JohnS]

Thanks ghost for reminding us of Gregory Herbert-one of the nice things about this board. I don't suppose I've played Baker's "..... Summertime" or Mel Lewis And Friends" (Horizon) for years. I've just finished playing the Baker disc and Herbert is quite impressive and I think Jim has described his playing accurately. I have the Lewis to look forward to this afternoon where he also plays alto. Forgotten too what nice productions Artist House were, the Baker has a typically lavish jacket plus a booklet/discography.

I knew his life was cut short by drugs but I didn't know he was that nasty.

Edited May 18, 2003 by JohnS

[sidewinder]

He's also a featured soloist on Thad & Mel' s 'New Life' and 'Live in Munich', both on Horizon. I'll add them to the listening pile ..

[Bataki]

I saw Gregory Herbert on two occasions here in Uppsala, Sweden, with Woody Herman's orchestra, the first time on March 1, 1976 and the second time 25th October, 1977. Those times I think he was among the most featured soloists of Woody's band, and he really was a hot tenor player. I still remember his battles with Frank Tiberi. Also I was to interview Woody for a couple of papers, but he disappeared quickly from the scene, so I tried to catch Gregory Herbert instead. To interview this dazzling tenor player was completely impossible. He was high as a scyscraper, and started to imagine something, and attacked a female colleague of mine. RIP, Gregory.

[Larry Kart]

I passed on the info in this thread to composer/saxophonist/bandleader writer Bill Kirchner, because I knew he knew and admired Herbert. He asked me to post this reply:

As the author of the Ammons-Stitt liner notes (with a mention of Gregory Herbert) referred to in a previous posting, I feel qualified to comment on the postings re Gregory.

I knew Gregory fairly well, and I wrote the only magazine feature on him that appeared during his lifetime (see DOWN BEAT, June 2, 1977). Though he fooled around with drugs, Gregory was not a junkie. If he had been, he probably would have been savvier about hard drugs and might still be alive today. As it was, some evil SOB in Amsterdam sold him a poisoned dose of heroin, and it killed him.

In my experience, Gregory was anything but a "prick," as one of your postings described him. He was diffident until he got to know you, but once that hurdle was overcome, he was warm, humorous, and a lot of fun to hang out with. I know quite a few musicians who played with him with Woody Herman, Thad Jones-Mel Lewis, the National Jazz Ensemble, and elsewhere.

All remember him fondly, as do I.

Gregory also was generous with some good advice at a time when I needed it. He's one of the reasons I'm a musician.

Last, of all his recordings--all as a sideman--Gregory's favorite was the Chet Baker ONCE UPON A SUMMERTIME.

Bill Kirchner

[John Tapscott]

I saw Gregory Herbert on two occasions here in Uppsala, Sweden, with Woody Herman's orchestra, the first time on March 1, 1976 and the second time 25th October, 1977. Those times I think he was among the most featured soloists of Woody's band, and he really was a hot tenor player. I still remember his battles with Frank Tiberi. Also I was to interview Woody for a couple of papers, but he disappeared quickly from the scene, so I tried to catch Gregory Herbert instead. To interview this dazzling tenor player was completely impossible. He was high as a scyscraper, and started to imagine something, and attacked a female colleague of mine. RIP, Gregory.

Bataki: I was a fairly close follower of the Herd and its peronnel in the '70's, and I'm almost certain that the tenor player you saw with Herman on those dates was not Gregory Herbert. The last time I saw Gregory with the Herd was in the spring of '75 at a Toronto concert. By that time he had already left Herman but had come back to fill in for a one night stand. Woody made some reference to that fact in the concert. I believe Woody really dug Gregory's playing.

The tenor player you are likely referring to is the one and only Joe Lovano who played with the Herd from about mid '76 to early '79. The other tenor player in the band at the time (besides Tiberi) was Gary Anderson who also

arranged for the Herd. I don't think anyone would describe Herbert as "a skyscraper" though you might speak of Lovano that way.

On reflection, it probably wasn't Lovano at the March 1, 1976 concert, but another player whose name escapes me at the moment. There's a poorly recorded CD on Storyville from that tour which I have at home, and his name is listed on that.

On the 25th of October 1977, it would certainly have been Lovano.

[JSngry]

Larry, thanks for posting Bill Kirchner's comments. Like I said, all I had heard were stories. Bill obviously knew the guy up close and personal, so his impressions definitely mean something to me. Too often the dark side is all that gets publicized. It's good to get a better balanced picture of such a gifted and ill-fated musician.

[Larry Kart]

More on Herbert from Bill Kirchner:

Please post that Gregory left Woody Herman in January 1975. Woody loved his playing, and Gregory regarded Woody almost as a second father.

And whoever it was who "attacked a female colleague" at a Woody Herman March 1, 1976 concert, it certainly wasn't Joe Lovano, one the gentlest and nicest people I know.

[John Tapscott]

Storyville CD - Woody Herman and his Orchestra - "Live in Warsaw"

Feb. 25, 1976

Tenors - Frank Tiberi, Gary Anderson, Salvatore Spicola

Baritone - John Oslawski

[Bataki]

John Tapscott: You’re right, it was not Gregory Herbert at those concerts at the Uppsala City Theatre. I should have consulted the female colleague I referred to in my post, before I started writing. I asked her yesterday about this, and she says she’s pretty shure that it was Gary Anderson at least one of the nights, and she added, that she was astonished by the fact that my Alzheimerish brain didn’t even rembember which one of the musicians who, affected by drugs in some way, mistook her for another women, and started to abuse her verbally. She won’t say who it was, which makes her a lot wiser person than I myself was, when I posted. So, the only thing we agreed on, was that the Woody Herman orchestra made a deep inpression on us both, those nights. And I myself just have to admit, that my posting about Herbert was a mistake, a worthless pile of words, that did not add anything to the knowledge of Gregory Herbert.