Does the instrument make the difference?

[Hardbopjazz]

All the musicians here, does the instrument make the difference? Charlie Parker went on stage with a plastic sax and did his thing. Does a $2000 Sax or guitar, or what ever you play, make you better musician then playing on, let's say, a $500 instrument?

[doubleM]

No, it does not make you a better musician. I know that Chet Baker used a lot of student model horns (not by choice, but necessity), and sounded great on them. The more expensive instruments might be easier to play, have better features, even a nicer tone, but if you don't have an inate ability to make an instrument "sing", it doesn't matter what equipment you use.

[Hardbopjazz]

The piano my daughter is learning on is not the best in the world, but she is enjoying playing on it. Hopefully it won't hamper her learning. I paid $500 in 1981. It was used. The action is tough. You have to press hard to make the note resonate well enough to fill the room. I wonder if I had a much better piano, she would do even better.

Edited July 24, 2004 by Hardbopjazz

[Joe G]

A nicer instrument doesn't make you a better musician, but it does make for a more enjoyable playing experience. Not having to fight a poorly made axe is one less thing to overcome. On the other hand, I can luxuriate in the sonorities of a well-made guitar for hours.

[JSngry]

Paradoxical as it might seem, the better you play, the worse axe you can handle.

[Joe G]

...which is why it's not such a good idea to start a beginner out on a crappy axe.

[Free For All]

When I do clinics for young trombonists I always check out their slides. The slide on the trombone is the most critical part- it must move in and out without a lot of friction. If it doesn't work well, there's a whole 'nuther battle to be fought that doesn't need to be. I'm always amazed by how crappy some of these kids slides are- granted, it's as much an issue of care and maintenance as it is of quality (I remember some of the nasty things I did w/my horn before I got "serious"). No wonder they're discouraged- it's like their slides have sand in 'em. With a beginner it's best to buy a student line "Indestructo" type of horn which is resiliant to rough handling. Once they reach a basic level of dedication and proficiency, then they should get a better axe. The better trombones for playing jazz have lightweight slides (IMHO) but are more prone to damage because of their more fragile construction.

It's important that beginners don't have to fight the instrument anymore than necessary- learning the trombone can be discouraging enough without the extra and unnecessary challenge of struggling w/an inferior instrument.

When you find THE right horn you adapt a protective obsessed attitude that probably parallels a mother bear/cub relationship. You don't like to be separated from your instrument or see anyone even get near it. Right Jim?

[JSngry]

Right.

The one time I lost, truly lost, an instrument is still the darkest time of my life. Other things have upset me more, but none deeper.

[Upright Bill]

...which is why it's not such a good idea to start a beginner out on a crappy axe.

Which is, as a teacher, incredibly hard to convince parents. The conversation with a new student's parent almost always goes;

Me: Your child's {guitar, bass} is really hard for even me to play, imagine what it will be like for {him, her}.

Parent: We bought that one {on sale, for Christmas, her birthday}. If s/he sticks with it we'll buy a better one.

Me: With that instrument, its highly unlikely that s/he will stick with it. Why don't you return that one and I'll help you pick out an instrument in your price range that is actually capable of being played.

Parent: Its not the money, its just that I don't want to spend the extra unless s/he's going to stick with it.

Me: Well, with a quality instrument, it s/he quits you'll be able to sell the instrument and get much of your money back. This instrument will just be thrown away. In addition, s/he will have a much better chance at avoiding long term joint injuries as well as being able to actually play the instrument without developing forearms like Popeyes.

Parent: We'll see after a few lessons.

Three weeks later the kid disappears.

I hate guitar store sales people.

[Shrdlu]

I liked that last post, Bill, and can identify with it on several levels. It even reminds me of problems I have as a Baptist minister - the way people come up with excuse after excuse and won't listen to you.

My first sax was a Selmer alto that was in really bad shape. (Looking back, possibly a "balanced action" model that had not been looked after well.) It looked bad and it was awkward to play, with worn rods and pads that did not seat well. I never really enjoyed playing it, and made only slow progress. I stuck with it because I really wanted to be a jazz sax player. Finally, after a few years, I gathered together enough money to get a new Mark VI alto. What a difference! It was a joy to play, and it sounded so much better.

I don't disagree with the comments about a good player being able to play anything, but it sure is nice to have a reasonably good instrument.

By the way, following up on a Blue Note thread about affordable saxes, I was out door-knocking Saturday, and got invited into the home of this real friendly family. I was shown the dog, their family tree, had a talk about cricket, and then the missus trotted out an alto that she had recently acquired for only about $500. It was a Bundy, the first I have ever seen. It said that it was made by Selmer. Anyway, I had a go on it, and it was a very nice horn. It was only a brief test, but I couldn't fault it (it was in mint condition, apart from needing a few minor adjustments, most of which I did on the spot). So, if your young 'uns need a sax, you could do worse than that brand. (I think she got a bargain at $500.)

[freddydwight]

this is a yes-no. freddy has a King Supersonic alto sax with that lovely sterling silver bell that he paid $500 for in the 1960s. then there is freddy's 50-year-old Holton Collegiate soprano sax, manufactured for marching bands, that is a silver-plated wonder to play. and it came free.

B) freddy

Edited July 27, 2004 by freddydwight

[jazzypaul]

I dunno. I have two drumsets. One Yamaha Maple Custom, that I got used because it was played on for 40 minutes by Yoron Israel at the Chicago Jazz Fest about 4 years ago. Very nice drumset indeed. The drums resonate like mad, they're built very well, they sound great, and they look beautiful.

However. My favorite set, and the one that I play on gigs unless looks matter is my practice kit. A $230 drumset that was meant for smaller kids who needed smaller drums. Turns out that the smaller kit is a 18" bass drum, 14" floor tom, 10" rack and a 5x13 snare. I don't even know the brand name. The drums don't resonate, they're practically made out of particle board and they look like shit. But tuned correctly, I can get them to sound exactly like Bill Stewart's kit, they stay in tune, they're easy to set up and tear down, and every drummer that has ever played them absolutely loves them.

So, does the instrument make the difference? Yes. Is the nicest or most expensive instrument always the one that you want to play? Nope.

[jazzbo]

And don't knock "Bird's plastic sax." I don't think it was an inferior instrument! Temperamental, hard to get repaired, yeah probably. But I have a book in which Ornette talks about his lovingly and Bird seemed to enjoy playing his, and they are pretty valuable instruments these days.

[jazzbo]

Bad instruments can really hold a player back. . . I agree that the better the player the more that he can glean from a bad instrument, but a novice or mediocre player may be better served by a better instrument. . . .

[Tim McG]

My son is a cellist and we are headed to SoCal this weekend to Studio City where we will be buying him his own cello.

I'd like to know the answer to the first question on this thread as it relates to stringed/orchestral instruments.

Any help will be most appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Edited July 27, 2004 by GoodSpeak

[Shawn]

When I first tried to learn to play guitar, my Mother got me one of those cheapo models...and not only was it impossible to keep in tune...the action was horrendous and all the adjustments in the world didn't make it any easier to play. So it ended up in a yard sale eventually....

I then bought a used bass from a friend who was in a band, it wasn't super expensive, but it was a nice Ibanez Roadstar II custom model....that bass had easier action than the guitar had! Anyway, I found it pretty easy to learn stuff on and made much faster progress.

When I eventually switched to guitar, I waited until I could afford a nice one before taking the leap...that was a wise move as I think it really helped me out initially.

Now, someone can hand me a real cheapo axe and I can play it just fine....so I agree with the others above that a nicer instrument is most necessary for people who are starting out.

[Upright Bill]

My son is a cellist and we are headed to SoCal this weekend to Studio City where we will be buying him his own cello.

I'd like to know the answer to the first question on this thread as it relates to stringed/orchestral instruments.

Any help will be most appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Spend your money on a great bow. Cello as with Double Bass the bow is more important than the instrument. Go here and look around. With both the bow and the instrument you need to try a bunch of them before you make a choice. If you can arraign to take his instructor along do it. If you haven't asked you may be surprised at how willing s/he is. Buying a good cello or Double Bass is much tougher than buying a factory manufactered instrument. Talk to symphony members near by and get their recommendations as well.

[casanovas347]

just take an instrument you feeling good on it and play it.....

i'm happy to found an instrument that fits perfect for me....for less buck (2nd hand)

better instrument = better action, handling, etc......its not up to the price.....even a cheaper instrument can be "better"

enjoy playin'

[maren]

The piano my daughter is learning on is not the best in the world, but she is enjoying playing on it. Hopefully it won't hamper her learning. I paid $500 in 1981. It was used. The action is tough. You have to press hard to make the note resonate well enough to fill the room. I wonder if I had a much better piano, she would do even better.

I think the piano player is more dependent than most musicians on the quality of the instrument itself and the skills of the technicians who build and maintain it. (I've played and taught piano and electric bass, studied singing extensively, and have a rudimentary acquaintance with violin, acoustic guitar, flute and trumpet).

It's such a big machine, and rarely is the pianist also a piano technician!

With most other instruments, the player is more hands-on (changing strings, applying valve oil, cutting reeds).

Playing on an exquisite piano is AMAZING when you've only played on a mediocre one. (Violinists have told me the same thing about getting to play on a Cremona-level instrument, so it's not JUST the piano.)

A tough action might be too much for a kid. It's most important that the action is EVEN -- it's really not good to have to practice day in/day out on a keyboard where the action is harder on some keys than others (THAT needs fixing.) What's also really bad is if, after exerting the force to get the key down, you don't get much sound. A firm action should at least yield a big sound. A really light action is annoying too, and it seems like it often goes hand-in-hand with a limited dynamic range (I'm thinking of something like a Wurlitzer spinet).

Hardbopjazz, you probably said elsewhere a while ago how old your daughter is, but I don't remember. But maybe her teacher knows of a place where she could get the chance to practice on a few different instruments? Community music schools? (Turtle Bay Music School on 52nd St between 2nd and 3rd? The "East 3rd Street Settlement music school" on East 11th St between 2nd and 3rd? Steinway or other piano showroom?) May cost a bit, but might be a worthwhile interim way to evaluate whether to invest in a better piano, and what kind?

As she advances and starts to play things with big chords in both hands, she'll be taught to "voice" certain notes in the chord louder than others. A lot of the time, these will be the top- and bottom-most notes, meaning she'll have to throw a lot of weight into each pinkie. This is where resonance and even action is really crucial. The tougher the action, the more weight required of course -- this doesn't inevitably mean overstraining, but at least the key should go down smoothly (hard action is one thing, a "bump" in it is another thing and it's HORRIBLE and unacceptable) and respond with volume.

[Robert J]

A good piano is a priority for me. I'd say 80% of the time when a club has a piano it is garbage. As noted above, the action is most important. You've got 88 keys moving approximately 5000 small parts. The better clubs maintain them. I won't even talk about mikes. I got smart and bougt at PZM mike for uprights and grands. Usually however I take my Roland FP3 on most gigs. I get 88 weighted keys and volume I can control. A shitty sounding piano can make a band sound lousy.

I've played many pianos live. Highlights include a 9' Steinway, 7-1/2' Yamaha (with about 12 mikes!! in a major jazz club) and a 7' Kawai at a private home party. That piano was about the best I played on. At one point (I was solo) I looked down at my hands and I was not conscious that I was even playing. It was like I was watching myself from a distance. I was thinking of a sound in my head and it just kept happeneing. That was a great night. But few and far between. Usually I am told I will be on a grand and it it worse than a bad upright.

[Shrdlu]

That's right about club pianos often being lousy. I think that was one reason why the (then) Fender-Rhodes sold pretty well at first. Listen to the Trane at Birdland album - what a disgusting piano! There's no excuse for it.

I remember, though, a letter in an English jazz magazine in the late 60s, from a club owner after a lot of griping about bad pianos. He said that he had tried hard for years to maintain a good piano, but it was constantly ill-treated by the musicians, who even spilled whole pints of beer into it.

[Tim McG]

My son is a cellist and we are headed to SoCal this weekend to Studio City where we will be buying him his own cello.

I'd like to know the answer to the first question on this thread as it relates to stringed/orchestral instruments.

Any help will be most appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Spend your money on a great bow. Cello as with Double Bass the bow is more important than the instrument. Go here and look around. With both the bow and the instrument you need to try a bunch of them before you make a choice. If you can arraign to take his instructor along do it. If you haven't asked you may be surprised at how willing s/he is. Buying a good cello or Double Bass is much tougher than buying a factory manufactered instrument. Talk to symphony members near by and get their recommendations as well.

Thanks, Bill.

In fact, his cello teacher recommended this place in Studio City and will either be there in person or have her friend there.

I think we're in good hands

What I found most enlightening is the comment you made about the bow being most important.

Tell me....why is that?

Very interesting concept.

[Tim McG]

Well...we bought the cello and the bow and the hard case.

It is a beautiful instrument and has a full, round sound with plenty of volume. I figure my son will gain enjoyment for many years to come.

Thank you for the help

[couw]

thas way cool.

have him play some Brahms, what's the number of that thing again... 38 I think.

Real good for musing.

[rockefeller center]

Well...we bought the cello and the bow and the hard case.

It is a beautiful instrument and has a full, round sound with plenty of volume. I figure my son will gain enjoyment for many years to come.

Thank you for the help

Shit, you forgot the colophonium.