Hybrid Cars.

[randissimo]

='jazzypaul' date='

So far, my biggest issue with the Hybrids is that they've been too small to be practical for a drummer (this is why I love my '72 MB...even if it only gets 9 mpg). But with the idea of a Highlander Hybrid, well, suddenly it seems like a fantastic idea.

I get all my drum gear comfortably in a 2000 Saturn wagon. I get 30 mpg average driving and around 34 mpg if I'm driving at 65 mph on the freeway.. For those who cannot afford a hybrid and have to have cargo space for music gear the Saturn LW200 or the SW2 wagons are great cars and still pretty easy to find online though they both have been dicontinued by Saturn. If you check out the LW2, LW200, or LW300 wagons you definitely want a 4 cyl and not the 6 cyl.

[Chuck Nessa]

Do you have anyone lined up to recycle the batteries or are you going to trade it in and leave the problem to the next shmo?

What do you know about energy consumed and chemical waste in building the "cells"?

This stuff really bothers me.

Chuck, here's what hybridcars.com has to say about the battery issue.

http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html

Not all that different from what the nuke industry sold us in the '50s.

[BFrank]

Do you have anyone lined up to recycle the batteries or are you going to trade it in and leave the problem to the next shmo?

What do you know about energy consumed and chemical waste in building the "cells"?

This stuff really bothers me.

Chuck, here's what hybridcars.com has to say about the battery issue.

http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html

Not all that different from what the nuke industry sold us in the '50s.

If you've got other information, let's hear it.

As for this - "Toyota and Honda place decals with a toll-free number on their hybrid battery packs. Toyota offers a $200 bounty to ensure that every battery comes back to the company." - is it not true?

[Chuck Nessa]

It is all probably true. What my "negative" posts are about is wtf do they do with the "residue" after you send it back.

Another concern I mentioned earlier (no one picked up on this) is the environmental "cost" manufacturing these "cells". Are the processes "clean"?

I am very wary of "corporate" promises.

[Rooster_Ties]

It is all probably true. What my "negative" posts are about is wtf do they do with the "residue" after you send it back.

Posted above (from a link provided above)...

Greener Pastures for Car Batteries

The carmakers are waiting in the wings. Toyota and Honda place decals with a toll-free number on their hybrid battery packs. Toyota offers a $200 bounty to ensure that every battery comes back to the company. In a press release, Toyota states, "Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled." Honda collects the battery and transfers it to a preferred recycler to follow their prescribed process: disassembling and sorting the materials; shredding the plastic material; recovering and processing the metal; and neutralizing the alkaline material before sending it to a landfill.

Honda, Toyota and the entire auto industry are pumping millions of dollars into research regarding lithium ion batteries for tomorrow's cars. Their primary motivation is to reduce the cost and increase the potency of hybrid batteries. Fortunately, supplanting lead and nickel batteries with rechargeable lithium batteries is also promising from an environmental perspective. Instead of clogging landfills with more toxic chemicals, hybrids—especially future hybrids powered by lithium ion batteries—may represent greener pastures for car batteries.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Rooster_Ties

[Chuck Nessa]

Right.

[Rooster_Ties]

Right.

You'r right, Chuck, I have no idea if anything they say (or anyone says, for that matter) is really true.

All I know is we usually get between 44 mpg and 48 mpg in our '06 Prius (except in the coldest 2 months of winter (when the engine runs a lot more to warm up the cabin), and warmest 2 months of summer (when we run the A/C a bunch)), and I sleep pretty well at night.

(And I hope the fuck they really recycle the batteries.)

Edited December 4, 2007 by Rooster_Ties

[BFrank]

Of course, it's always good to be skeptical - especially from the corporate PR machine.

My basic point is, that everything I've heard about hybrids is better than your basic, gas-guzzling internal combustion engine. At least it's a movement in the right direction. It's not a perfect technology for sure. If anything, it's a transitional technology that we'll have to live with until the major auto makers come up with something TOTALLY different that does away with the dependency on fossil fuels.

I'm just glad to see SOMEthing new come along that's being accepted by the car-buying public.

[BruceH]

Of course, it's always good to be skeptical - especially from the corporate PR machine.

My basic point is, that everything I've heard about hybrids is better than your basic, gas-guzzling internal combustion engine. At least it's a movement in the right direction. It's not a perfect technology for sure. If anything, it's a transitional technology that we'll have to live with until the major auto makers come up with something TOTALLY different that does away with the dependency on fossil fuels.

I'm just glad to see SOMEthing new come along that's being accepted by the car-buying public.

Me too.

When I first heard of hybrids I thought they sounded like a logical "bridge" technology til we get fully electric cars or something else non-fossil fueled.

[BERIGAN]

Green Car of the Year

Story Filed: 11/17/2007 2:49:15 PM EST

By Perry Stern

General Motors dominates the finalists and wins this year’s honors.

It's safe to say that when Americans think of fuel-efficient cars that are friendly to the environment, they're probably picturing a small, lightweight sedan or coupe. However, the 2008 Green Car of the Year announced at the Los Angeles Auto Show will shatter that perception.

The winner is a 5,000-plus pound V8-powered full-size SUV—the all-new Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid. Not only can this year’s winner carry up to eight passengers or tow 6,000 pounds, it is rated at 21 mpg in the city and 22 on the highway. The city mpg rating matches that of the Toyota Camry passenger sedan.

“This is a milestone in many respects,” said Green Car Journal editor and publisher Ron Cogan. “People don’t think ‘green’ when SUVs are concerned, and for generally good reason since SUVs often get poor fuel economy compared to most other vehicles. Chevrolet’s Tahoe Hybrid changes this dynamic with a fuel efficiency improvement of up to 30 percent compared to similar vehicles equipped with a standard V8.”

The Green Car of the Year is selected by a jury of environmental and industry leaders, along with four Green Car Journal editors. Invited jurors this year included Carroll Shelby, Jay Leno, Carl Pope (Sierra Club), Christopher Flavin (Worldwatch Institute), Jonathan Lash (World Resources Institute), and Jean-Michel Cousteau (Ocean Futures Society).

Other finalists for Green Car of the Year included the new Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid, Saturn Aura Green Line, Mazda Tribute Hybrid and Nissan Altima Hybrid. Although the top five vehicles were hybrids, that’s not a requirement for winning this award. In fact, Cogan told us that vehicles using a variety of technologies were considered; however, to be eligible a vehicle must not only be new but also widely available to the public.

Production volume and likelihood that the technology could be used in other models was also part of the selection process. The dual-mode hybrid system in the Tahoe was developed along with DaimlerChrysler (prior to the separation of Daimler and Chrysler) and BMW. Dodge introduced its first use of this technology in its Durango Hybrid at this year's LA show.

Although the Tahoe Hybrid’s fuel economy is not nearly as impressive as other vehicles on the road, it’s the improvement over the standard Tahoe, with no loss of utility, that put the Tahoe Hybrid at the top of the list.

http://autoshow.autos.msn.com/autoshow/LA2...nnl_6008.4.5.19

[porcy62]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/automobi...amp;oref=slogin

[BERIGAN]

It is all probably true. What my "negative" posts are about is wtf do they do with the "residue" after you send it back.

Another concern I mentioned earlier (no one picked up on this) is the environmental "cost" manufacturing these "cells". Are the processes "clean"?

I am very wary of "corporate" promises.

Chuck, I think your fears can be alleviated, at least a bit because there is a lot of money to be make recycling automotive parts. I imagine Toyota is making a small fortune having folks just give them these batteries back(Well, for $200 bucks) Plus they look like are a green company as well.

I have seen somewheres(History Channel???) a program showing how recyclers are able to separate everything,I mean everything, plastics, all the many types of metals in products, etc, etc...wait...it may have been a show on tearing down old buildings, and how they reuse the older bricks from these factories, copper piping, wiring, on and on.

Plus, the recycling industry has to follow environmental rules for disposing of what can't be reused.

[BERIGAN]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/automobi...amp;oref=slogin

Very interesting!

[porcy62]

It is all probably true. What my "negative" posts are about is wtf do they do with the "residue" after you send it back.

Another concern I mentioned earlier (no one picked up on this) is the environmental "cost" manufacturing these "cells". Are the processes "clean"?

I am very wary of "corporate" promises.

Chuck, I think your fears can be alleviated, at least a bit because there is a lot of money to be make recycling automotive parts. I imagine Toyota is making a small fortune having folks just give them these batteries back(Well, for $200 bucks) Plus they look like are a green company as well.

I have seen somewheres(History Channel???) a program showing how recyclers are able to separate everything,I mean everything, plastics, all the many types of metals in products, etc, etc...wait...it may have been a show on tearing down old buildings, and how they reuse the older bricks from these factories, copper piping, wiring, on and on.

Plus, the recycling industry has to follow environmental rules for disposing of what can't be reused.

I agree with Conrad, you may believe or not, but over here stealing copper from railroad crossing, I think they use big transformer for it, is getting a lucrative activity. When the villains and the thiefs are entering in an economic process (recycling), you can be sure that it worths it.

[BERIGAN]

Porcy, had no idea Copper theft was a global issue! Here about it a lot here in the south. Found this link talking about the worldwide problem...

http://www.geotimes.org/oct06/resources.html

[porcy62]

Porcy, had no idea Copper theft was a global issue! Here about it a lot here in the south. Found this link talking about the worldwide problem...

http://www.geotimes.org/oct06/resources.html

Nor did I. We should locked our fridges.

[Chuck Nessa]

Chuck, I think your fears can be alleviated, at least a bit because there is a lot of money to be make recycling automotive parts. I imagine Toyota is making a small fortune having folks just give them these batteries back(Well, for $200 bucks) Plus they look like are a green company as well.

Has anyone addressed my question about the energy/pollution issue in the manufacturing processes?

If I missed it, accept my .

I fear we are all pissing in the dark and some of us are staining our shoes. I do not trust the folks making the money to tell the truth.

Edited December 15, 2007 by Chuck Nessa

[porcy62]

Chuck, I think your fears can be alleviated, at least a bit because there is a lot of money to be make recycling automotive parts. I imagine Toyota is making a small fortune having folks just give them these batteries back(Well, for $200 bucks) Plus they look like are a green company as well.

Has anyone addressed my question about the energy/pollution issue in the manufacturing processes?

If I missed it, accept my .

I fear we are all pissing in the dark and some of us are staining our shoes. I do not trust the folks making the money to tell the truth.

From my point of view it depends how much do you use your car. I made less then 2000 miles per year, so I presume that the energy/pollution in the manufacturing of a less gas guzzler car, BTW I own a Honda HRV, not a 8V Suv, doesn't worth the game. Obviously if you are commuter with a daily 80/100 miles, well, probably the thing is different.

[Chuck Nessa]

No, I mean what pollution is caused manufacturing the various "cells" to power the "clean" cars. We have to look at manufacturing, public use and disposal of all products. Not simple.

For example, plastic wrap may protect food, save 400 people a year from disease but the manufacturing processes may make 600 people ill.

[porcy62]

No, I mean what pollution is caused manufacturing the various "cells" to power the "clean" cars. We have to look at manufacturing, public use and disposal of all products. Not simple.

For example, plastic wrap may protect food, save 400 people a year from disease but the manufacturing processes may make 600 people ill.

Hard question, though in general, at least over here, industrial process is greatly improved in the last twenty years, both for the enviromental impact and the workers' health. One of the reason because the bastards of big corporations moved the plants in China or India or Russia, security and cleaningness has a cost. Without considering the lacks of workers' rights.