Hybrid Cars.

[Soulstation1]

I AM A STRONG BELIEVER IN INSTIGATING THE SWITCH OVER THE HYDROGEN CAR FUEL, WHICH MUST BE DONE ASAP.  ICELAND HAS DONE IT, SO SHALL THE USA IF IT WANTS TO SURVIVE.

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does AE know something we don't?

[Chrome]

Sometimes I ride in a "Hybrid" bus, though I'm not sure what sort of powertrain it actually has!

I think if I were to go back to having a car I would look seriously at a hybrid. . . though by the time I decide to a fuel cell vehicle may be available!

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The fleet here in the twin cities has a couple of them, too. They are so quiet! I have never ridden on one, but as they drive by on the street, it sounds as if they are only idling. Them traditional diesel sum'bitches can be LOUD. On my daily communte, I wear over ear headphones sometimes for music, always for hearing protection.

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The buses use a GM/Allison hybrid system ... you can take it how you'd like, but, according to GM, this is part of their conscious decision to focus on applications in which hybrids can make the most difference ... the fuel savings between a Prius and a "regular" compact are way smaller then the fuel saving between a standard city bus and these hybrids.

[BFrank]

Getting our second Prius this afternoon.

Wow, is it ever needed now!

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SECOND!

Good for you.

[rostasi]

Getting our second Prius this afternoon.

Wow, is it ever needed now!

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SECOND!

Good for you.

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Thanks! When the wife would leave town,

I'd immediately start driving hers and my '93 Corolla

would sit in the garage. So, at 3:30 today I pick up the second Prius

and we'll try to find a good home for the Corolla - probably a student who wants a

"well taken care of" car with a major sound system -

[Rooster_Ties]

My wife and I will get to (finally!) pick up our brand new 2006 Prius sometime next week. We've been on the waiting list for it since before Thanksgiving. (Oh, to answer your first question -- "blue". )

This is the very first "new" car I've ever been involved in buying, so I'm pretty darn excited!! The "newest" car I've ever owned dates back to 1992 (which is my current Honda Accord wagon, which I'll be getting rid of soon).

We're getting the full tax credit too (something like $3,100, I think), which will start to go down rapidly for Prius purchases starting sometime late this year -- ramping down to zero tax incentive by this time next year (if not sooner).

Can't wait for next week to get here!!!

[BFrank]

We're getting the full tax credit too (something like $3,100, I think), which will start to go down rapidly for Prius purchases starting sometime late this year -- ramping down to zero tax incentive by this time next year (if not sooner).

I'm excited, too!!

Meanwhile, the fact that the tax incentives are ramping DOWN is just "criminal". I've read the reason behind it, but it's a twisted logic that I don't even remember. If anything, tax credits for hybrid and low emission vehicles should be ramping UP.

[catesta]

So, today I helped my parents through the agony of making a car deal. They picked out a shiny new silver Prius and traded off two Mercedes-Benz in the process.

They're going to take the car back to Italy with them.

Never thought I'd see the day of my father going Toyota let alone a Prius, but I think they made a fine decision.

[JohnS]

All I know is that I am drooling like a dog over a bone over the idea of the Toyota Highlander Hybrid. So far, my biggest issue with the Hybrids is that they've been too small to be practical for a drummer (this is why I love my '72 MB...even if it only gets 9 mpg). But with the idea of a Highlander Hybrid, well, suddenly it seems like a fantastic idea. Toyota build quality, SUV space and height and 50 mpg? Hell, where do I sign up?

On our last trip to the US (last Autumn) we rented a Toyota Highlander. We did about 2000 miles around New Mexico and Arizona. This was my first experience of a hybrid and I was a very impressed by the car. From this limited experience I'm sure it wasn't that ecomomical on the highway. Didn't really get a chance to evaluate it's city driving ecomomy. But as car, definitely recommended. High drool factor.

[porcy62]

Hybrid will be my next purchase, when I'll have to replace my old one. Considering the time I keep a car, probably it will be a hydrogen fuel car.

[Rooster_Ties]

Last June ('06) we bought our first new (or newer) car in almost 15 years...

...and got a Prius -- and we love it!! We would buy another one again in a heartbeat.

Last summer and all through most of the fall, we were getting a good 45 mpg, sometimes even closer to 48 mpg. But our mileage went down in the winter (since the engine has to run all the time to try to heat the passenger compartment), to about 35-38 mpg.

The car handles wonderfully, has WAY more get-up-and-go than I was ever expecting (the extra power from the batteries).

Anyone who's car shopping, and doesn't at least test-drive a Prius -- is really doing themselves a disservice.

My Dad (who turns 80 this year, in May), is going to be in the market for a new (or newer) car within about the next year or two (he drives a '92 Olds now). It's a shame that he wouldn't even consider a Prius (or any non-U.S. car), and he would never buy one even if his life depended on it.

[BFrank]

I rented a Honda Civic Hybrid a couple of months ago for an out-of-town trip. I did well over 700 miles and it was a very comfortable ride and got around 40mpg. I would still buy a Prius over this, but I was pleasantly surprised.

[(BB)]

Hybrids may be good for the environment, but they can be deadly on pedestrians. I just about walked in front of one in a parking lot, it was in electric mode (no engine noise) and I was apparently in auditory mode, bout' dropped my dinner fixings.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Hybrids may be good for the environment, but they can be deadly on pedestrians. I just about walked in front of one in a parking lot, it was in electric mode (no engine noise) and I was apparently in auditory mode, bout' dropped my dinner fixings.

I am very aware that my car's silence can be deadly in "stealth mode" so I am particulalrly careful in parking lots.

My 2004 Prius is now up to 71,000 miles. Gas & oil changes. Best car I've ever owned (so far).

I just picked up a 2002 Toyota Avalon for the wife. This is one smooooth ride.

[Uncle Skid]

I just picked up a 2002 Toyota Avalon for the wife. This is one smooooth ride.

Ah yes, the "Japanese Buick"!

That is a nice car... bigger than I expected. I ended up with an Accord (non-hybrid) that still gets almost 30 mpg on the highway.

[rostasi]

Ours are still going strong

with an average of 53.2mpg for the 2002 version

and 49.6mpg for the 2001 with those rates slowly climbing.

100 California Households Get to Test Drive Plug-In Priuses

[jazzbo]

Anyone know much about the Saturn "Aurora"?

[catesta]

It's an Aura, no?

I rented one for a few days when in California during the summer. Not bad. Seems like a lot of car for the money

[jazzbo]

Thanks for the correction.

And your impression.

[BFrank]

I went to Enterprise to rent a "compact" car for a brief trip south to visit my mother. When I got to the lot I saw a black Prius sitting there. I asked if it was available and he said it was, so of COURSE I had to take it. He only charged me $5 more than the $150 I was paying for the regular compact. I'll be putting over 700 miles on the thing so, I'll be saving some $$ on gas this time.

Whenever I've tried to rent one of these, they've either been horribly expensive (Hertz - around $400) or not reservable in advance (Enterprise). So, I lucked out, for sure.

... and it's black!

[Guy Berger]

I'll be in the market for a new car in the spring and will probably check out the hybrids. The Prius is way too small for my taste but it looks like there are some larger hybrids on the market.

Guy

[BruceH]

I went to Enterprise to rent a "compact" car for a brief trip south to visit my mother. When I got to the lot I saw a black Prius sitting there. I asked if it was available and he said it was, so of COURSE I had to take it. He only charged me $5 more than the $150 I was paying for the regular compact. I'll be putting over 700 miles on the thing so, I'll be saving some $$ on gas this time.

Whenever I've tried to rent one of these, they've either been horribly expensive (Hertz - around $400) or not reservable in advance (Enterprise). So, I lucked out, for sure.

... and it's black!

Cool!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I'll be in the market for a new car in the spring and will probably check out the hybrids. The Prius is way too small for my taste but it looks like there are some larger hybrids on the market.

Guy

I've had a 2004 Prius for the last 4 years. It is a lot bigger inside this car than you'd think. Yeah, there's no trunk, but interior capacity is close to the Camry, which is Toyota's up-sized hybrid. The hatchback design allows for some huge hauling capability. I've lugged around everything from 20 cases of Bordeaux to B&W tower speakers.

I have almost 90,000 on this car now all at nearly 45 mpg. Best car I've ever owned. Try one out before deciding it's "too small".

Kevin

[Chuck Nessa]

Do you have anyone lined up to recycle the batteries or are you going to trade it in and leave the problem to the next shmo?

What do you know about energy consumed and chemical waste in building the "cells"?

This stuff really bothers me.

[clifford_thornton]

My dad drives a Civic Hybrid and it's really nice, very roomy.

My girlfriend drives a Prius, which is tiny (I'm 6'6") but seems to be going strong after four years and is rarely in the shop.

[BFrank]

Do you have anyone lined up to recycle the batteries or are you going to trade it in and leave the problem to the next shmo?

What do you know about energy consumed and chemical waste in building the "cells"?

This stuff really bothers me.

Chuck, here's what hybridcars.com has to say about the battery issue.

http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html

Battery Toxicity

Given current trends, there will be more than one million hybrid gas-electric vehicles on American roads by late 2007 or early 2008. Many will celebrate reaching the milestone of one million hybrids zipping around on power from their rechargeable batteries—and burning a lot less petroleum. But some environmentally motivated car buyers are concerned about trading one problem for another. They worry that a hybrid utopia might turn into a toxic nightmare when the nickel metal hydride batteries in today's hybrids end up in landfills. After all, aren't all car batteries —conventional lead acid and hybrid batteries alike—filled with the same nasty corrosive carcinogenic ooze?

According to environmental researchers, that's not the case. Jim Kliesch, author of the "Green Book: The Environmental Guide to Cars and Trucks" told HybridCars.com, "There are many types of batteries. Some are far more toxic than others. While batteries like lead acid or nickel cadmium are incredibly bad for the environment, the toxicity levels and environmental impact of nickel metal hydride batteries—the type currently used in hybrids—are much lower."

Get the Lead Out

There's little argument that lead is extremely toxic. Scientific studies show that long-term exposure to even tiny amounts of lead can cause brain and kidney damage, hearing impairment, and learning problems in children. The auto industry uses over one million metric tons of lead every year, with 90% going to conventional lead-acid vehicle batteries.

According to a 2003 report entitled, "Getting the Lead Out," by Environmental Defense and the Ecology Center of Ann Arbor, Mich., an estimated 2.6 million metric tons of lead can be found in the batteries of vehicles on the road today.

While lead recycling is a mature industry, it's impossible to rescue every car battery from the dump. More than 40,000 metric tons of lead are lost to landfills every year. According to the federal Toxic Release Inventory, another 70,000 metric tons are released in the lead mining and manufacturing process.

Can We Talk?

"Lead is so cheap. It's difficult to get people to seriously discuss replacing lead batteries in a conventional vehicle" said Karen Thomas, state policy manager at Environmental Defense, in an interview with HybridCars.com. Ironically, the emergence of hybrid cars, the necessary advancement of alternative batteries to satisfy the hybrid demands, and worries about the toxicity of hybrid batteries, have re-opened the environmental debate about all car battery technology. "It's providing an opportunity for us to talk about it," said Thomas.

Hybrid gas-electric vehicles, like the Toyota Prius, are the most visible examples of how cars are becoming more electrical and less mechanical. Vehicles with conventional drivetrains are increasingly using electronic technology, such as drive-by-wire and brake-by-wire. Cars are adding more and more onboard accessories and entertainment. Thomas said, "Lead is so heavy. You can't just add more or larger lead-acid batteries to accommodate the increased electrical demands. Some say lead is at its limit."

Lead, Nickel, Lithium—In That Order

The need for more robust battery technologies to power vehicles and their accessories prompted Environmental Defense to conduct a three-month research effort in 2005 to examine environmental impacts related to the extraction, manufacture, use, and disposal of nickel metal hydride batteries, as well as lithium ion—which many consider to be the battery of choice in the next five years. Environmental Defense then compared those impacts to lead acid. "Our initial conclusion is that lead is the worst, nickel is next, and lithium is the least harmful," said Thomas. This will greatly depend on what materials are combined with lithium, and how toxic those materials are. Using cobalt, for example, in lithium ion batteries would be problematic. It will also depend on the emerging recycling technologies.

While not nearly as dangerous as lead, nickel is not without some environmental risks, and is considered a probable carcinogen. There are also concerns about the environmental impacts of nickel mining, and apparent challenges with fully recycling the nickel used in hybrid batteries.

Hybrids are still sold an relatively low numbers. As a result, large-scale environmental threats from hybrid batteries are not immediate. Hybrids were introduced in the United States in 2000. Hybrid batteries are under warranty for eight to 10 years, depending on the manufacturer and your location, most likely won't fail for several years beyond the warranty. In the first few years, hybrids sold in low numbers—growing from less than 10,000 in 2000, to 35,000 in 2002. By all calculations, the challenge of recycling hybrid batteries is at least five years away.

Greener Pastures for Car Batteries

The carmakers are waiting in the wings. Toyota and Honda place decals with a toll-free number on their hybrid battery packs. Toyota offers a $200 bounty to ensure that every battery comes back to the company. In a press release, Toyota states, "Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled." Honda collects the battery and transfers it to a preferred recycler to follow their prescribed process: disassembling and sorting the materials; shredding the plastic material; recovering and processing the metal; and neutralizing the alkaline material before sending it to a landfill.

Honda, Toyota and the entire auto industry are pumping millions of dollars into research regarding lithium ion batteries for tomorrow's cars. Their primary motivation is to reduce the cost and increase the potency of hybrid batteries. Fortunately, supplanting lead and nickel batteries with rechargeable lithium batteries is also promising from an environmental perspective. Instead of clogging landfills with more toxic chemicals, hybrids—especially future hybrids powered by lithium ion batteries—may represent greener pastures for car batteries.