Hybrid Cars.

[Craig23]

I just got a job (after a year of being jobless). I need a new car to get to work reliably (with the old one I may or may not get to work depending on how it feels in the morning - my current car has a mind of its own). Does anybody here have a hybrid car? Any thoughts on hybrids in general?

I know they are pricey but, over the long run, I figure I will save in gas.

[Aggie87]

I have a neighbor who has a Prius, and he loves it! Says he gets about 60 mpg on the highway. That alone is awful tempting. And it recharges itself, and accelerates pretty well.

I believe Kevin Bresnahan was a proponent of Priuses earlier...maybe he can offer some more input.

They look a little egg-shaped to me still, but at some point I may be able to get past that...

edit: they're apparently not all that expensive, list (about $20K or so - I suppose that's pretty average these days). But I think they have a bit of a waiting list, if I understand correctly...

Edited July 23, 2004 by Aggie87

[medjuck]

I've got a Prius. I love it. But I sure don't get 60 miles per gallon. More like 42. I've got the first model. I bought it because I test drove it when my daughter was buying a car. (She ended up with a pick-up.) It's fun to drive and has a great turning ratio (if that's what it's called. ) It's fast enough for me to have gotten a speeding ticket already. I think the new models are slightly bigger. I've read somewhere that they get better mileage than mine but I met someone who's owned both (he obviously likes them) and he said he got slightyer better mileage with the old one.

[Joe M]

Most hybrid cutsomers don't get even close to the mileage quoted by the EPA test. That's not to say that a hybrid isn't a good thing, just that the current testing scheme was designed in the 70's and cars have changed. The 60mpg number sounds high for a Prius. The Honda Insight is supposed to get around that number, but it's not nearly as practical. More and more hybrids are coming out too, Ford is launching the Escape hybrid compact SUV, and Toyota has some more on the way also.

[BFrank]

Hey! What's wrong with 42 MPG?

I would get a Prius in a flash. It's definitely my next car.

As mentioned previously, the Honda Insight is a s m a l l 2-seater, which explains the 60MPG. I've also heard that the Honda Civic hybrid doesn't get as good mileage as the Prius. It uses different technology which is not as efficient in the city.

On top of everything else, I believe that there are tax breaks for hybrids, too.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I've got a Prius. I love it. But I sure don't get 60 miles per gallon. More like 42.  I've got the first model.

If you have "the first one", which I am assuming is a 2000-2003 model, then that model never claimed 60 mpg. It's EPA estimates were 45 highway/52 city so 42 mpg is close to what it's rated.

I would say that you can and should be doing better. Your model car was designed to use extremely hard low-rolling resistance tires. They require higher pressure than you would normally use to get the best mileage. Supposedly, you need 42 front/40 rear to get the best mileage. Of course, with these settings, the ride is harder on your posterior and the tires wear out a lot faster.

The difference in your mpg by between travelling at 65 mph versus 75 mph on the highway can be as much as 5 mpg with this car. Driving habits need to be modified to get the mileage anywhere near the EPA sticker.

Which brings me to the second part of the mpg ratings. The US government refuses to modify how they test cars for mpg. The current method is outdated. It never expected a car like the Prius. The current method involves having the car fully warmed up before starting the test. The Prius, once fully warmed up, can go a long way on the electric battery before the gas engine kicks in. The city mpg rating reflects this. In real life, it much more difficult to get great mileage right off the line: the car's computer forces the gas engine to run for about 5 minutes every time you start the car to force clean emissions (and after all, it is rated Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle). BTW, all testing is done on a roller machine which simulates a perfectly flat terrain. Not real life.

I have had a 2004 Prius since October 27, 2003. I now have nearly 16,000 miles on it. I have been very active in the Prius discussion groups over at Yahoo and from these groups, I have learned more about my car than I ever thought I could.

Using the driving techniques I learned there, the most important being the need to "coast" as often as possible, I have lately been averaging 52.5 mpg for my (mostly highway) commute to work. I travel 28 miles each way. Of these, about 20 are highway and when I'm on the highway, I go about 75 mph so I don't baby it. My car is "rated" 55 highway/60 city. About 2 weeks ago, there was a "commute from hell", where I probably never went faster than 35 mph the whole way home. I got 62.7 mpg for that commute, a personal best for me.

I will say one other thing about mpg that most early buyers up here in the Northeast did not know: cold temperatures kill mpg for all cars by about 10-15%. Take 10% off a Ford F-150: it goes from 18 mpg to 16. Most drivers wouldn't even notice. Now do the same for my Prius: 52.5 mpg goes to 47.25 mpg. If it happens that your car is a "15% car", it's 44.625, which is more in line with what I got this past winter. However, this mileage, was before my car was fully broken in and before I started using the higher-mileage driving techniques. I expect that by this winter, I will be getting much higher mileage, even with the crappy "winter gas" they send us when it gets cold.

Finally, I would and always do recommend this car to anyone who will listen. It has been a great car for me. Driving for the highest mpg has become a bit of a game. I watch the display and get the engines running the best way and I have perfected getting it to coast. On back roads, it's key to keep the car under 41 mph, which is the point the gas engine must kick in. This alone has saved me from a couple of back roads speed traps.

Be forewarned: Prius waiting lists are nearing 2 years at some small dealerships! Unless Toyota can ramp up production, don't expect to be able to buy one quickly.

Later,

Kevin

Edited July 24, 2004 by Kevin Bresnahan

[medjuck]

Keven: You obviously know a lot more about the Prius than I do. One question I have: The "B" setting for driving(about which very little is said it in the instruction manual)-- is it basically just a lower gear and should one use it as such. Right now I only use it when descending very steep hills.

[GregK]

I'd get a hybrid if GM made one-I'll never buy a Honda or Toyota

[Joe M]

Well, GM is far behind in the hybrid race. They will be coming out with some "mild hybrid" pickups, but those will go mainly to fleet customers, and aren't all that impressive, nothing like the full hybird powertrains of Toyota, Ford and Honda. GM sunk a lot of money into the EV1 program over the past decade, which was a commercial disaster, though you think they'd try to apply their expertise in electric powertrains from that project to hybird development, but I think their losses there have scared them away. It costs a lot for an automaker to build a vehicle like Prius or Escape hybrid, and some of the juciest gossip in the auto industry these days involves how much both Toyota and Ford are losing per each hybrid sold. Of course, they're making in back in all the good PR, but with GM's auto division still struggling, they're more focused on revamping their existing vehicle lineup. That said, GM is one of the leaders in developing hydrogen fuel cell technology though that is at least a decade away, likely much longer than that. If your interested in buying American, I'd suggest checking out the Escape hybrid, and then in a year or two, Ford will be selling a hybrid version of their upcoming midsize sedan the Ford Fusion. There has also been talk about GM developing a hybrid version of the Chevy Malibu, but who knows when that's going to finally show up.

[jazzypaul]

All I know is that I am drooling like a dog over a bone over the idea of the Toyota Highlander Hybrid. So far, my biggest issue with the Hybrids is that they've been too small to be practical for a drummer (this is why I love my '72 MB...even if it only gets 9 mpg). But with the idea of a Highlander Hybrid, well, suddenly it seems like a fantastic idea. Toyota build quality, SUV space and height and 50 mpg? Hell, where do I sign up?

Greg, get off the "I only buy America" kick. It's people like you that allow the big 3 to keep making crappy cars. I'll gladly go American when they can make a product as well as Toyota or Honda, or make a car with as much personality as a VW. Until then, I'll loudly proclaim my love for poorly built german econoboxes and gargantuan antiques.

[jazzbo]

Sometimes I ride in a "Hybrid" bus, though I'm not sure what sort of powertrain it actually has!

I think if I were to go back to having a car I would look seriously at a hybrid. . . though by the time I decide to a fuel cell vehicle may be available!

[Joe M]

Greg, get off the "I only buy America" kick. It's people like you that allow the big 3 to keep making crappy cars. I'll gladly go American when they can make a product as well as Toyota or Honda, or make a car with as much personality as a VW. Until then, I'll loudly proclaim my love for poorly built german econoboxes and gargantuan antiques.

The Big 3 still have to some catching up to do, but I'd much rather have a new Ford or GM vehicle than say, a new VW, talk about lack of reliability!

American automakers make some fine products today.

[jazzypaul]

The Big 3 still have to some catching up to do, but I'd much rather have a new Ford or GM vehicle than say, a new VW, talk about lack of reliability!

Completely agreed. One of the highlights of VW ownership (this is my sixth, my last, and my second to be nothing but trouble...) is that when your car is in the shop and they call enterprise, you get to drive all sorts of different cars all the time!!!

Actually, that wasn't so bad once. My car got wrecked. Insurance sent me to Enterprise. All they had in the lot (it was a friday afternoon) was a Jaguar X-Type, which I got to drive for 2 months. Never has an experience with a car been so unique, and cool, even if the new Jags do look like Tauruses.

Thanks, VW!!!!

[PHILLYQ]

Greg, get off the "I only buy America" kick.  It's people like you that allow the big 3 to keep making crappy cars.  I'll gladly go American when they can make a product as well as Toyota or Honda, or make a car with as much personality as a VW.  Until then, I'll loudly proclaim my love for poorly built german econoboxes and gargantuan antiques.

The Big 3 still have to some catching up to do, but I'd much rather have a new Ford or GM vehicle than say, a new VW, talk about lack of reliability!

American automakers make some fine products today.

Keep in mind,too, that Honda & Toyota have factories in the USA that employ American workers- not so simple, is it?

[Joe M]

Greg, get off the "I only buy America" kick.  It's people like you that allow the big 3 to keep making crappy cars.  I'll gladly go American when they can make a product as well as Toyota or Honda, or make a car with as much personality as a VW.  Until then, I'll loudly proclaim my love for poorly built german econoboxes and gargantuan antiques.

The Big 3 still have to some catching up to do, but I'd much rather have a new Ford or GM vehicle than say, a new VW, talk about lack of reliability!

American automakers make some fine products today.

Keep in mind,too, that Honda & Toyota have factories in the USA that employ American workers- not so simple, is it?

No, it's not. Many cars by the Big 3 are either built outside of the US, or are built here using parts made in other countries. The automakers all use similar suppliers, so it's really a global business. However, I think that a lot of people don't even look at US products just because of the "coolness" factor, or precieved reliability.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Keven: You obviously know a lot more about the Prius than I do. One question I have: The "B" setting for driving(about which very little is said it in the instruction manual)-- is it basically just a lower gear and should one use it as such. Right now I only use it when descending very steep hills.

The best explanation I can find for the "B mode" said: "B mode uses the generator to spin the engine for compression braking."

I believe what it does it shuts off the ignition to the gas engine and uses the ingine friction to slow the car down. I believe the car will automatically go into this mode if you over-charge the battery. I've had it happen at the bottom of a long descent. Once the battery hits "full", the gas engine sounds like it over-revs, but what it's really doing is disengaging the charge circuit and spinning the engine to brake the car. It also saves the brakes from wear... and remember, these brakes also charge the battery, so it's hard to stop without generating charge.

Later,

Kevin

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I'd get a hybrid if GM made one-I'll never buy a Honda or Toyota

You will be waiting forever if you want a GM hybrid. They don't appear to be interested at the moment. Their goal for years has been an alternative fuel car, not a hybrid. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the success Toyota has had with hybrids causes GM to look at this again but they're very far behind Toyota and Honda.

Ford has been trying to launch their Escape hybrid for years now. Rumors abound about their approach but it seems that they licensed the Toyota drive train design. However, with Toyota's hybrid solution, it's almost all about the software, not the hardware. Getting the 2 engines to seemlessly interact is no small feat. I have read that all of Ford's delays have been due software glitches. It is one of the more amazing aspects of my Prius with the way it switches each engine on and off at the perfect time.

BTW, it is very easy to have an over-revving gas engine just fry an electronic engine that's attached to the same axle. That might be part of Ford's troubles.

Later,

Kevin

[Kevin Bresnahan]

The Big 3 still have to some catching up to do, but I'd much rather have a new Ford or GM vehicle than say, a new VW, talk about lack of reliability!

American automakers make some fine products today.

I bought only American cars for decades. I loved my old Chevy Impalas back in the 80's. I drove a 1968 4 door Impala for at least 4 years and a 1965 4 door for nearly 5 years... all through college, in fact.

I had 1985 Chrysler LeBaron convertible that was a blast! I cruised all over the place in that car. Never had any troubles. It was a great car.

Then I decided to buy a Dodge Shadow in 1987. Ooo boy, what a dog. I bet I dumped over $2K into that car in about 2 years. This for a car that cost me $12K new!

At the same time I bought the Shadow, I bought a 1987 Dodge mini-van for the wife. What a piece of crap! It had no pick-up. The tranny slipped all the time. I couldn't drive it on the highway with the A/C on... it couldn't get up hills! I had to turn it off to go up hills. My turn away from American-only cars began. I blame Chrysler. They treated me like crap and refused to accept blame for their pieces of junk.

The tranny finally died in the 1987 Dodge Caravan mini-van but my wife really liked the mini-van for transporting the kids, so I bought a 1992 Plymouth Voyager. It was an even bigger dog than the first one. I had to have that tranny replaced twice!

This was the beginning of the end for me with American cars.

We bought a Toyota Sienna mini-van in 1999. It has been an absolute dream from the start. I highly recommend this car. We have nearly 70,000 miles on it and I have done nothing but standard maintenance.

Last year, I was driving a 1995 Buick Park Avenue. I loved this car. It was costing me a boatload of money to maintain (like the $1400 intake manifold replacement I had to have done because the car over-heated and melted the old one) but it was so smooth on the highway. When I got rear-ended last June, I had a decision: go get another Park Avenue or pick something else.

Well, by this time, I was facing a 28 mile (each way) commute. Gas was getting expensive. My Chevy pick-up, which I had to use when the Park Ave got totalled, got about 15 mpg. I looked into the Prius. I rented a 2002 model for a weekend. Didn't like it. I tried a 2003 Honda Civic hybrid. Didn't like it. Too small and really underpowered on the highway. I looked at GM's high-mileage cars but they were all too small. Someone recommended a VW TDI but the word was their build-quality was horrible.

Then I found out that the 2004 Prius would be bigger and faster. I looked into it and made the switch. I ordered one without driving it. It was scary. But it really worked out. I have never been happier with a vehicle purchase. This morning, it went over 16,000 miles. Nothing but oil changes and tire rotations.

I wish this was a Chevy or a Buick but I had no options with them. Quite honestly, GM seems to be more concerned with making gas-guzzlers than fuel efficient vehicles. Their loss.

Later,

Kevin

Edited July 27, 2004 by Kevin Bresnahan

[Joe M]

Ford has been trying to launch their Escape hybrid for years now. Rumors abound about their approach but it seems that they licensed the Toyota drive train design. However, with Toyota's hybrid solution, it's almost all about the software, not the hardware. Getting the 2 engines to seemlessly interact is no small feat. I have read that all of Ford's delays have been due software glitches. It is one of the more amazing aspects of my Prius with the way it switches each engine on and off at the perfect time.

BTW, it is very easy to have an over-revving gas engine just fry an electronic engine that's attached to the same axle. That might be part of Ford's troubles.

Later,

Kevin

Ford did not license the actual drive train design. If you look at the Toyota and Ford designs they are similar in concept only (full hybrid). They share no common parts or designs to my knowledge. Ford did pay Toyota to license their patents for such a system though to avoid any legal trouble. That is not the same as actually licensing the parts or designs. Firms apply for patents often based on an overall concept or idea. Thus Toyota owns some patents for this specific approach to "hybridization". This is very common in the auto industry, and in fact, in the same deal that gave Ford license to use the Toyota patents, Ford gave Toyota license to use some of Ford's clean burning diesel patents, so no money actually changes hands in the deal.

By the way, I produce a weekly radio program about air quality, and have done several interviews with the engineers of these various hybrids, you can listen to them online.

Toyota Prius - Bill Reinart, National Manager - Advanced Technology Group for Toyota - Listen Here

Ford Escape Hybrid - Tom Watson, Ford Motor Company - Hybrid Powertrain Supervisor - Listen Here

[Lazaro Vega]

My wife and I put our money down on a Prius a couple of weeks ago. The waiting list in Muskegon is 10 months. The car was introduced in 1996, but last October they brought out the sedan which has "normal" tires, incredible safety features and is large enough for our family of four. So, this is their second generation. It prices between 23,000 and 26,000 which is not cheap, breaking out to around $400 a month.

We've bought and have been driving used cars since 1992 and 1997 respectively, and my Celica has 245,000 miles on it. Going to miss that fuel injected power, yet the new Prius as the same horsepower as a Camry, which might be around 110 (does that sound right?)

All kinds of folks are going to be coming out with hybrids in 2005, including Jeep.

The Toyota dealership gets two a month and there are 11 people in line ahead of us. If someone in the line doesn't like the color or level of car that's come in, they'll give us a call.

The dealer said Toyota is making 45,000 of these cars for the world wide market and they haven't even advertised them in the States yet.

They're only being made in Japan because coming out of the 1970's, when American scientists and engineers put forward their plans to develop more fuel efficient cars, politicians said, No we're not, and challenged the wisdom of investing "all that money" in something that wouldn't see benefits for 30 years. Well, here it is 30 years later and it is the 1970's all over again: the Japanese are ahead of us, leading the way, while Americans aren't even aware of the failure of the marketplace. In other words, there's a giant subsidy to the oil and gas industry in America to help keep gas prices artifically low, and that has caused a failure of the market to drive innovation. If gas prices were actually $4 a gallon at the pump today, Detroit would be under seige.

Instead, the oil industry continues to use "all that money" to keep the price artificially low, and now U.S. auto makers are having to pay the Japanese for their hybird technology to go into American cars. Very expensive either way you do it, but the Japanese win out for being smarter and more innovative.

You just can't play these large scale issues on the cheap and fast, but that's politics -- mine and now.

So, I'm buying a car from the Japanese, and looking forward to it. The new Prius is rated 61 city, 51 highway.

Maybe I'll need to get on a chat room when we get ours.

LV

[Lazaro Vega]

Joe, listening to the program now. Thanks for the link. I see I had a few small facts wrong, but was in the ball park.

[Guest ariceffron]

I AM A STRONG BELIEVER IN INSTIGATING THE SWITCH OVER THE HYDROGEN CAR FUEL, WHICH MUST BE DONE ASAP. ICELAND HAS DONE IT, SO SHALL THE USA IF IT WANTS TO SURVIVE.

[Lazaro Vega]

NPR's Science Friday was dedicated to that topic just the other day. It is politics, not technology, that is slowing America down. I'm all for everyone in the country getting a copy of Jeremy Riffkins "The Hydrogen Economy." Here's the link to Science Friday, though it is isn't up to stream yet: http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2004/Au...ur1_081304.html

[rostasi]

Getting our second Prius this afternoon.

Wow, is it ever needed now!

[WD45]

Sometimes I ride in a "Hybrid" bus, though I'm not sure what sort of powertrain it actually has!

I think if I were to go back to having a car I would look seriously at a hybrid. . . though by the time I decide to a fuel cell vehicle may be available!

←

The fleet here in the twin cities has a couple of them, too. They are so quiet! I have never ridden on one, but as they drive by on the street, it sounds as if they are only idling. Them traditional diesel sum'bitches can be LOUD. On my daily communte, I wear over ear headphones sometimes for music, always for hearing protection.