Blue Note Sound Quality

[Teasing the Korean]

The monos were folddowns, but they still sound better. Those albums were mixed with mono in mind. Much more bass and piano (generally speaking).

[porcy62]

Personally I like both mono and stereo, though it depends on session. About reissues, I have no problem to believe that a stereo master, aged 40 years, sounds better then a 40 y/o mono master that is actually a second generation master obtained folded down the stereo.

And in some case, like early Atlantic, the mono are always better because the unnatural separation of channels.

edit: didn't we do this very same discussion at least a dozens of times, did we? No suprise new generation don't appreciate jazz, if jazz fans like us are victims of ageing diseas: lost of memory, alzheimer...

Edited November 1, 2007 by porcy62

[Teasing the Korean]

But a better mix one generation removed sounds better than a lousy mix that saves a generation.

[porcy62]

But a better mix one generation removed sounds better than a lousy mix that saves a generation.

That is true, though my NY stereo pressings don't sound such lousy.

[Teasing the Korean]

"Lousy" was an exaggeration. Sorry.

[porcy62]

"Lousy" was an exaggeration. Sorry.

No problems.

I am a bit worried that the news about the stereo could hit the market of the BN Mono Stocks like the crisis of subprime funds, should we ask FED and ECB to speak out it in order to calm the Vinyl Stock Market?

[mikeweil]

edit: didn't we do this very same discussion at least a dozens of times, did we? No suprise new generation don't appreciate jazz, if jazz fans like us are victims of ageing diseas: lost of memory, alzheimer...

Sorry if I dusted off old worn hats - that is, I wasn't aware of those folddown mixes.

I come to like mono more and more, and in the case of the Atlantics I totally agree with you.

[porcy62]

edit: didn't we do this very same discussion at least a dozens of times, did we? No suprise new generation don't appreciate jazz, if jazz fans like us are victims of ageing diseas: lost of memory, alzheimer...

Sorry if I dusted off old worn hats - that is, I wasn't aware of those folddown mixes.

I come to like mono more and more, and in the case of the Atlantics I totally agree with you.

No problem.

Like a lot of things, music-related hardware is a matter of personal feeling. That's why I dislike endless arguing about what is the best remastering or if mono are better then stereo or fight like Tube vs Solid State. The truth doesn't belong to material things: hi-fi gear, SACD or vinyl, truth is in the music itself. It doesn't matter by wich means the music reach your soul: digital, analog, vacuum tube, an i-Pod, a 50K TT, original pressing or SACD. Some of us are moved by old cracky vinyl, others by the latest hi-rez digital stuff, others by iPod, who cares? The important thing is being affected by music. I always loved "A Love Supreme" even when I had it on a lousy cassette recorded by a friend. I am happy that in the stream of time I could afford better stuff for listening Coltrane, but that didn't change my love.

Edited November 1, 2007 by porcy62

[Daniel A]

That's why I dislike endless arguing about what is the best remastering...

And yet you are starting a thread, asking which pressings offer the best sound quality...

Sorry, just kidding! Surely it's mostly about the music. But I can honestly say that I'm also interested in sound equipment, recording and reproduction. There are people just interested in sound quality and the technology, spending thousands and thousands on their HiFi gear and never talk about the music. That kind of poeple often get wry comments on forums like this one, but I try not to say anything on the subject; let people obsess with stereo equipment if they want to.

I also don't say anything about those who are interested in cars, but not in travelling.

[porcy62]

That's why I dislike endless arguing about what is the best remastering...

And yet you are starting a thread, asking which pressings offer the best sound quality...

Sorry, just kidding! Surely it's mostly about the music. But I can honestly say that I'm also interested in sound equipment, recording and reproduction. There are people just interested in sound quality and the technology, spending thousands and thousands on their HiFi gear and never talk about the music. That kind of poeple often get wry comments on forums like this one, but I try not to say anything on the subject; let people obsess with stereo equipment if they want to.

I also don't say anything about those who are interested in cars, but not in travelling.

I am very interested in sound equipments and recordings and over the years I spent considerable amounts of money on it, I am one who believe that interconnects and power cables make a difference, I found some of this stuff even sexy!

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=36927

I am saying that I dislike that sort of religious wars about "The Absolute and Truthful Sound" that are going on in lots of forums. Maybe the definition "high fidelity" is misleading, there are thousands of gear and SACD and vinyls out there who claim to be the best in "fidelity". After a long trip I realized that there are stuff I like and stuff I dislike, and it's based on my ears and personal taste, not on "fidelity".

[Claude]

The Truth about Blue Note Monos

Many customers have wondered why we've chosen to favor Stereo over Mono in our latest Blue Note Records reissue project. It seems there's a fair amount of misinformation out there regarding a perception that Mono Blue Notes are superior to their Stereo counterparts. The truth is, every Rudy Van Gelder Blue Note session after October 30, 1958 was recorded in Stereo only. The Mono releases of those recordings were created by folding down the Stereo master tape. In other words, there was no true Mono master, only a Stereo master that then birthed the Mono master! There was a short period of time - March 1957 to October 30, 1958 - when RVG did in fact run dual Mono and Stereo session tapes. For Blue Notes from that period of time, the Mono version was in fact cut from a Mono master. But for all others, every Mono was cut from a folded-down Stereo tape. In fact, the master tape boxes from these great sessions each include a notation by RVG himself that says, "monaural masters made 50/50 from stereo master."

Mono Blue Notes are typically much more desirable on the collector's market. Because of that, the assumption of everyone involved with both the Analogue Productions and Music Matters, Ltd. Blue Note reissue projects was that the Mono master tapes were going to sound better than the Stereo master tapes. Imagine the surprise when mastering engineers Kevin Gray and Steve Hoffman discovered that there were no true Mono master tapes for sessions later than October 1958! But of course the real proof is in the reel. Without a single exception, Kevin, Steve and everyone involved agreed that the Stereo masters sounded vastly superior to the summed Mono masters. The Stereos, in every instance, sounded much more lifelike with far greater detail, air and ambience.

Another point supporting our choice to favor Stereo, as if there's any need for one after that discovery, is that listeners can still choose to hear these classic recordings played back in Mono by simply pushing the Mono button on their preamp or by using a Y-connector to feed the two Stereo channels into Mono, exactly as RVG himself did.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/sale.cfm?s...reissue_AP_2008

[porcy62]

In the November 2007 issue of Jazz Times there is an article about turntables and vinyl. Along the way it mentions that contrary to what many believe, the Blue Note mono masters were mixdowns from the stereo masters! That should be earthshattering for some ....

No news, Wolff posted it a couple of years ago, Chuck agreed it and if you go to Ron Rambach's Music Matters site it's clearly stated that after October 30, 1958, BN monos were 50% channels' fold down.

http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/sound.html.

Said that, if you already have a collection of BN original monos, are you going to replace it with new stereo reissues because of that? I have a lot of "true" monos of other labels, including Prestige, VeeJay, ecc and the early Beatles/Stones/Dylan/James Brown, ecc. as you probably know stereo and mono mixes were radically different in the early rock records so the earth remains firm under the feets over here, so I believe it does in Sidewinder's garden..

BTW The Music Matters 45rpm Test Pressing that Ron sent to me (Horace Parlan BST 4043) sounds gorgeous, the best I heard from a reissue, unfortunately I haven't the original pressing of this particular title, nor mono or stereo, so I couldn't direct A/B compare, but I did with the Mosaic I have, and it was a no contest. Hoffman did a great job on it, way better then the Classics I own and closer to Van Gelder's early sound and spirit. So if you're in the market for the "new" best sounding BN reissues I warmly reccomend it, if you can afford the price and bare the annoyance of flip the record after every track.

Claude, Claude, read the entire thread before posting.

And I still think Hoffman is a pretensious and greedy "good sound remasterer", surrounded by McCarthyst-like worshippers.

Edited November 14, 2007 by porcy62

[Daniel A]

On the other hand, Claude posted that link of yours on September 16th already.

[Teasing the Korean]

The fact that they are fold-downs still does not change the fact that the mixes sound better in mono.

[Chuck Nessa]

The fact that they are fold-downs still does not change the fact that the mixes sound better in mono.

[porcy62]

On the other hand, Claude posted that link of yours on September 16th already.

True, but thell me one good reason because I should buy the fortieth copy of Soul Station , without any psychiatrist's explanation, though I need a psychiatric help, but for more serious reasons.

Let's take Soul Station, AFIK Thruth is out there, as Fox Moulder stated,

there are:

1) an original mono pressing 63rd west label

1) a DG of the same pressing

1) NY label mono pressing

1) a stereo original 63rd west pressing

1) a stereo NY label

1) a stereo Liberty label

1) a "Finest jazz, etc..."

1) a Classics mono reissue

and probably some King or Toshiba reissues, maybe some bad Pathe...

And we are only talking about my beloved vinyl.

PLUS

several CD: Ron MacMaster, Malcom Addey, RVG, JRVG and SACD, XRCD and maybe some more japanese exotic reissues.

I presume, but Claude will know better then me, and I'd love he could add a comprensive list of the digital reissues of Soul Station (no kidding or mocking, I'll appreciate it).

Tell me one good reason because I have to buy the latest "Truth". I despise the Pope and Pat Robertson, if I'd buy the new Hoffman remaster I'd see the light?

Did you consider how much time would you need to compare all the different reissues??

I mean our opinion would be grounded on self appointed "experts" (and Ron Rambach sure is, no kidding, I love the man) so all my judgement would be based on trust and not on direct experience. And the Test Pressing I had from RR is jaw dropping, no kidding) but...

Well, Huh, the bass is more defined there, but the air around the instruments is better here...and the cymbals, wow those cymabals...!

I bought a new TT, I like it. Fine. End of the story. Why do I like it? I don't know, it's a matter or taste or I posponed for too much time my check up with the Otorhinolaryngologist? Who knows? Maybe Mikey Fremer wrote a great review on Stereophile and had the TT at price cost and reselled it after a week with a 30% profit.

IMO life is too hard: diseases, enviromental issues, people starving, wars...I found all this stuff about the latest reissue total BS and deeply cynical. I am too depressed and cynical to spend time on it and I am typing and wasting time on it just right now. I understood everybody has to carry on, me too, put the bread on the table for the family...

As Peter Gabriel said

September '77

Port Elizabeth weather fine

It was business as usual

In police room 619

Oh Biko, Biko, because Biko

Oh Biko, Biko, because Biko

Yihla Moja, Yihla Moja

-The man is dead

It was business as usual everywhere, even at my studio and at mr. Hoffman, I just find all these depressing.

I am deeply sorry for the rant, apologize if I offended someone.

[Chuck Nessa]

Just enjoy the music. That's what it is supposed to be about.

[porcy62]

Just enjoy the music. That's what it is supposed to be about.

Thanks, Chuck!

I deeply appreciate it.

It's what I wish to hear: music.

[Teasing the Korean]

Just enjoy the music. That's what it is supposed to be about.

Hard for me to enjoy a jazz quartet or quintet when the bass and piano are buried in the mix. This is why the mono versions sound better.

And if the stereo mixes did indeed take priority for RVG, then he is grossly overrated.

[RDK]

True, but thell me one good reason because I should buy the fortieth copy of Soul Station , without any psychiatrist's explanation, though I need a psychiatric help, but for more serious reasons.

Who is telling you to buy the 40th copy of Soul Station? Nobody. If you're happy with the copy you now have, so be it. No one has to buy any of these new vinyl reissues. But they are there if someone wants them. They may well be the "best" version available - and on vinyl - and if you don't already have a copy or want a (arguably) superior copy then go for it. On the one hand you rave about the test pressing that you heard, but on the other you dismiss the value/purpose of the entire reissue series.

And wtf does any of this have to do with Stephen Biko? Gawd, the melodrama!

[Chuck Nessa]

Just enjoy the music. That's what it is supposed to be about.

Hard for me to enjoy a jazz quartet or quintet when the bass and piano are buried in the mix. This is why the mono versions sound better.

And if the stereo mixes did indeed take priority for RVG, then he is grossly overrated.

As someone who's done mono and stereo recording, folddowns, worked with RVG and a bunch others, I say you do not know what you are talking about if you think mono folds bring you better bass and piano.

[Teasing the Korean]

As someone who's done mono and stereo recording, folddowns, worked with RVG and a bunch others, I say you do not know what you are talking about if you think mono folds bring you better bass and piano.

As someone who as done mono and stereo recording and mixing, I can tell you this: Any stereo recording that is properly in phase will result in a noticeable boost in the center channel (+3dB) when folded down to mono. This is a fact.

The bass and piano are in the center on most of those RVG mixes. Drums and horns are usually off to the sides. Most of those recordings are in phase also, to RVG's credit. This means more bass and piano in mono.

As someone with ears that work, I can also tell you that the piano is often buried in those RVG stereo mixes. Regardless of his intentions, most of those records have a better balance in mono.

You are entitled to your opinions of RVG stereo recordings, and I am entitled to mine.

I've never heard any of your records, so I can only hope that you did a better job of mixing the piano on your records than RVG did on his.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Teasing the Korean

[Chas]

Whether a mono folddown yields a louder , better balanced piano or not is neither here nor there to those who don't care for the way Van Gelder mic'd the instrument ( q.v. this earlier thread)

I myself don't understand blanket condemnations of Van Gelder's piano sound , since there are plenty of examples of excellence . Which of course is not to say that I prefer Van Gelder's piano sound over all others , since I do prefer DuNann's for instance , but then by the same token I prefer Van Gelder to Dowd .

[sidewinder]

On the other hand, Claude posted that link of yours on September 16th already.

Let's take Soul Station, AFIK Thruth is out there, as Fox Moulder stated,

there are:

1) an original mono pressing 63rd west label

1) a DG of the same pressing

1) NY label mono pressing

1) a stereo original 63rd west pressing

1) a stereo NY label

1) a stereo Liberty label

1) a "Finest jazz, etc..."

1) a Classics mono reissue

and probably some King or Toshiba reissues, maybe some bad Pathe...

Porcy, you forgot the test pressings.

[Claude]

Claude, Claude, read the entire thread before posting.

And I still think Hoffman is a pretensious and greedy "good sound remasterer", surrounded by McCarthyst-like worshippers.

Sorry, I thought the text on the Acoustic Sounds website contained new information, but it doesn't.

Let's take Soul Station, AFIK Thruth is out there, as Fox Moulder stated,

there are:

1) an original mono pressing 63rd west label

1) a DG of the same pressing

1) NY label mono pressing

1) a stereo original 63rd west pressing

1) a stereo NY label

1) a stereo Liberty label

1) a "Finest jazz, etc..."

1) a Classics mono reissue

and probably some King or Toshiba reissues, maybe some bad Pathe...

And we are only talking about my beloved vinyl.

PLUS

several CD: Ron MacMaster, Malcom Addey, RVG, JRVG and SACD, XRCD and maybe some more japanese exotic reissues.

I presume, but Claude will know better then me, and I'd love he could add a comprensive list of the digital reissues of Soul Station (no kidding or mocking, I'll appreciate it).

The big difference between the popular OJC (Riverside, Prestige, contemporary, ...) material and the Blue Note material is that, as far as digital reissues go, the Blue Notes were often unsatisfactory soundwise. First a dull Ron McMaster remaster, then a botched RVG reissue. Blue Notes were almost never reissued on XRCD, SACD or other audiophile formats. Just a handful of MFSL and DAD reissues. So this 45rpm series would be for many fans the first occasion to hear the music in top quality (judging from the 45rpm OJC series). There were the Classic Records LPs of course, but most of them are now OOP, and I don't know how good they sound.

But I would have preferred high quality remasters in a modern format (SACD, DVD-A, hi-rez downloads, ...)

As far as the OJC stuff goes, there are already good CD reissues available (often the cheap OJC CD itself), so the 45rpm sets are not that essential.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Claude