Blue Note Sound Quality

[Peter A]

His name is Dave Kidd and he's a really, really nice guy. He inherited an amazing collection of Jazz LPs from his father--he was a DJ from about 1957 until 1970 and was sent all kinds of stuff and barely played any of it!! Dave really needs the money and he contacted me through another forum and asked for tips and I in turn told him everything I know and introduced him to Larry who also helped out.

Dave loves the music--he has been careful to made a nice CD copy of every LP he is selling. He wouldn't be selling them unless he really needed the money.

I was able to get some nice records from Dave for very fair prices--NONE of them Blue Notes--those are all going up on ebay. Dave hooked me up with a Sun Ra Savoy and some minty Ornette Coleman mono Atlantics and few others things as well before he went to ebay.

Amazing, such a collection of unplayed promo's. And a VERY interesting source of information, as it helps to determine the real first Blue Note pressings. For instance, on auction now is an audition copy of Kenny Drew's Undercurrent (BLP 4059), with no DG on either side. People always think the DG (side 2 only) version is the original version.

Anyway, after a slow start, his auctions do quite well. Last time prices went through the roof and potential bidders now know how to find him.

[Allan Songer]

Amazing, such a collection of unplayed promo's. And a VERY interesting source of information, as it helps to determine the real first Blue Note pressings. For instance, on auction now is an audition copy of Kenny Drew's Undercurrent (BLP 4059), with no DG on either side. People always think the DG (side 2 only) version is the original version.

Anyway, after a slow start, his auctions do quite well. Last time prices went through the roof and potential bidders now know how to find him.

I know I wont be able to afford any of them!!

[Dmitry]

As far as I know the following pre-4226 BN originals have no ear:

4118 DonaldByrd - Free Form

4171 George Braith - Extension

4193 Art Blakey - Indestructible

4196 Freddie Hubbard - Blue Spirits

4203 Andrew Hill - Andrew!!

4204 Dexter Gordon - Gettin' Around

4206 Sam Rivers - Contours

4209 Hank Mobley - Dippin'

84212 Lee Morgan - The Gigolo

4213 Bobby Hutcherson - Components

4215 Jackie McLean - Right Now!

4217 Andrew Hill - Compulsion!!!!

4218 Jackie McLean - Action

4219 Wayne Shorter - The All Seeing Eye

4222 Lee Morgan - Cornbread

Just to clarify - these were issued by Blue Note prior to their sale to Liberty and were not pressed at the Plastilite plant?

Edited October 11, 2006 by Dmitry

[Peter A]

Just to clarify - these were issued by Blue Note prior to their sale to Liberty and were not pressed at the Plastilite plant?

No, all were issued after the takeover by Liberty. So non of these were pressed at Plastylite.

However, Liberty still used NY labels for these titles (except for the Gigolo which was issued much later). Apparantly the labels were already printed, or perhaps they used "blank" (NY) stock labels.

For some reissues of the early titles Liberty even used old labels, with the Lexington St. or 47 W 63rd St. address. Non of these have ears, though.

[sidewinder]

Just to clarify - these were issued by Blue Note prior to their sale to Liberty and were not pressed at the Plastilite plant?

No, all were issued after the takeover by Liberty. So non of these were pressed at Plastylite.

However, Liberty still used NY labels for these titles (except for the Gigolo which was issued much later). Apparantly the labels were already printed, or perhaps they used "blank" (NY) stock labels.

For some reissues of the early titles Liberty even used old labels, with the Lexington St. or 47 W 63rd St. address. Non of these have ears, though.

Yep - and they have 'RVG' in the runout (as distinct from 'Van Gelder') and often have laminated sleeves with 47W63rd addresses, just to confuse matters further !

[Dmitry]

Here's another bit of trivia: Even though BN4226 is the highest catalog number pressed at Plastylite, the last two titles actually pressed there and released by Blue Note before the sale were Larry Young's "Unity"

BN4221 and Lee Morgan's "Search for the New Land" BN4169--an album that had been sequenced and prepared for release over TWO YEARS before hand. Copies of 4169 with the ear are VERY VERY rare--I have been told that only a couple of thousand were pressed.

I have BST 84169 pressing of the Search For The New Land with "van gelder" and the "ear" stamped in the dead wax. Unfortunately the record is only VG, with some clicks and pops. You're saying this one is rare?

[Allan Songer]

I have BST 84169 pressing of the Search For The New Land with "van gelder" and the "ear" stamped in the dead wax. Unfortunately the record is only VG, with some clicks and pops. You're saying this one is rare?

All I know is that for every "New York" copy with the ear I have come across I have seen 10 without the ear.

I have a truly mint mono copy with the ear and a NM Stereo without the ear.

[sidewinder]

I also have a truly mint mono 'NY' copy of this - alas without the ear !

Sounds bloody wonderful though !

[Chuck Nessa]

No time to sort it out, but a bunch of misinfo here.

[Dmitry]

No time to sort it out, but a bunch of misinfo here.

[michel1969]

The best sounding (apart original)

[jbs-tom]

so to get back to the point:

if you want to start blue note vinyl collecting and money is rare, start with near mint liberty pressings (about 25-40 $ mostly) or as many mentioned before, try to find the japanese king pressings (watch out for mono) which are about 30-50 $ in near mint and have a superb fidelity. (avoid most japan toshiba emi pressings)

but do not forget to have a fine turntable with a good cartridge, otherwise the best mono ny pressing sounds like trash

[Dmitry]

so to get back to the point:

if you want to start blue note vinyl collecting and money is rare, start with near mint liberty pressings (about 25-40 $ mostly) or as many mentioned before, try to find the japanese king pressings (watch out for mono) which are about 30-50 $ in near mint and have a superb fidelity. (avoid most japan toshiba emi pressings)

but do not forget to have a fine turntable with a good cartridge, otherwise the best mono ny pressing sounds like trash

I would also add Mosaic - the Blue Note vinyl sets I have sound wonderful. This is perhaps the best and easiest way to start listening to Blue Note records on vinyl. Especially since most Mosaic sets on eBay are *really* VG+/NM-.

[Daniel A]

This thread makes an interesting read (although I'd love to hear what the stated "misinformation" is). I thought I should post here that I just compared a couple of different editions of the same album. Nothing relevatory - the results are in line with what has already been said here.

I made A/B comparsions between four pressings of Bobby Hutcherson's 'Total Eclipse'. Sound-wise, I would rate them as follows:

- BST 84291, original US Liberty (1968)

- GXK 8140, Japanese King (1979)

- CDP 7 84297 2, US CD release (1989)

- BNJ 71078, Japanese Toshiba-EMI (1985)

The King pressing comes close to the original. Perhaps somewhat of the presence is lost, but the vinyl is quieter and the treble is clearer. I played these LPs on two different turntables (Thorens TD-125 and Technics SL-1210); the sound was slightly different but the ranking the same. The CD (remastered by Malcolm Addey) sounds actually rather good (or at least as good as this somewhat reverbant recording can be made to sound). The big disappointment is the Toshiba pressing, which sounds muted and undefined.

I once had a French DMM of this title, but sold it years ago, so I can't comment on the sound of that.

I would also like to add that I've got several very good-sounding Toshiba LPs with BN-xxxx catalog numbers (pressed in the early 90s), as well as a couple of BNJ-xxxxx which do sound fine. Perhaps further comparsions will reveal if the BNJ series (mid 80s) are more likely to be hit-or-miss.

A link to this site has been posted in some other threads I think, but it has a good (though not complete) list of Japanese Blue Note LP releases: http://microgroove.jp/bluenote-jpn/

[six string]

On a related note, what does it mean when RVG or VanGelder is not in the deadwax of a lp that he recorded? I have a copy of Blue and Sentimental on a Bluenote Liberty pressing. Does this simply mean that he wasn't involved in transfering said album to vinyl? The album sounds good to me, though I haven't a/b'd it with the cd version, as I'm not usually anal enough to do such a thing. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

[porcy62]

Funny that this thread popped up more then 3 years later. I started it when I got back my old Thorens and my records' boxes from the garage of my parents.

Now I can hardly listening to CDs anymore, I ineherited my dad's classical collection, I rediscovered a lot of LPs I bought in my youth, I have almost all Mosaic I really wished, a lot of original pressings, included some Lexington's and none of the japanese pressings suggested, I replace my Thorens with a Linn LP12 (and I am going to replace it soon with a brand new "used" superturntable at a very good price with two arms with a mono cartdrige and a stereo one). My bank account suffered a bit, but I am happy I did it. I feel I have enough music on vinyl to dig for the rest of my life. Sometimes life can be sweet.

Edited October 31, 2007 by porcy62

[six string]

Funny that this thread popped up more then 3 years later. I started it when I got back my old Thorens and my records' boxes from the garage of my parents.

Now I can hardly listening to CDs anymore, I ineherited my dad's classical collection, I rediscovered a lot of LPs I bought in my youth, I have almost all Mosaic I really wished, a lot of original pressings, included some Lexington's and none of the japanese pressings suggested, I replace my Thorens with a Linn LP12 (and I am going to replace it soon with a brand new "used" superturntable at a very good price with two arms with a mono cartdrige and a stereo one). My bank account suffered a bit, but I am happy I did it. I feel I have enough music on vinyl to dig for the rest of my life. Sometimes life can be sweet.

I am very envious. I would love to have a mono and stereo arm on my turntable. Hell, I just wish I could have another arm with a mono cartridge standing by for those mono lps. My VPI Scout makes changing tone arms very easy, but then there's the cost of the addtional cart and arm. Maybe some day.

[sidewinder]

Pretty happy with the sound of both mono and stereo Blue Notes on my LP12 with the Aro arm and Dynavector cart so will stick with this I think, for a long time to come.

[porcy62]

Pretty happy with the sound of both mono and stereo Blue Notes on my LP12 with the Aro arm and Dynavector cart so will stick with this I think, for a long time to come.

Stick to it if you like it. I auditioned at my home for a week a very expensive japanese tubed pre amp with three phono imputs. Rave reviews, handmade, no PCB, fully tubed, no transistor on signal path, you name it. I gave it today back, I prefer my old Audio Research. So I'll do with the new superTT if I'll not like the sound. I am pretty lucky to have a hi-fi seller who's a friend, so I can audition his used and demo stuff now and then in my system.

Edited October 31, 2007 by porcy62

[Daniel A]

On a related note, what does it mean when RVG or VanGelder is not in the deadwax of a lp that he recorded? I have a copy of Blue and Sentimental on a Bluenote Liberty pressing. Does this simply mean that he wasn't involved in transfering said album to vinyl? The album sounds good to me, though I haven't a/b'd it with the cd version, as I'm not usually anal enough to do such a thing. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)

I would like to know the answer to this, too. From what I've heard the RVG stamp indicates that Van Gelder was the mastering engineer for that LP release. I mentioned this recently in the vinyl spinning thread, but the post got buried rather quick. The album in question was Kenny Dorham's 'Whistle Stop'; Liberty pressing, no RVG stamp. The cover says that it was electronically re-recorded for stereo, but I don't believe it, since the original recording was in stereo.

[porcy62]

For sure Allen or Chuck should know it better then me, but AFIK if RVG or VanGelder is not on the dead wax means that RVG recorded the session, but didn't do the mastering job. I have "The Real McCoy", Liberty stereo, that haven't got any Rudy's stamps in the dead wax, only the catalogue number BST-84264, and the sound isn't the usual RVG's sound of the Liberty pressings.

Edited October 31, 2007 by porcy62

[mikeweil]

In the November 2007 issue of Jazz Times there is an article about turntables and vinyl. Along the way it mentions that contrary to what many believe, the Blue Note mono masters were mixdowns from the stereo masters! That should be earthshattering for some ....

[sidewinder]

In the November 2007 issue of Jazz Times there is an article about turntables and vinyl. Along the way it mentions that contrary to what many believe, the Blue Note mono masters were mixdowns from the stereo masters! That should be earthshattering for some ....

I can believe it but I just go by what my ears tell me. For the most part, they sound great !

[porcy62]

In the November 2007 issue of Jazz Times there is an article about turntables and vinyl. Along the way it mentions that contrary to what many believe, the Blue Note mono masters were mixdowns from the stereo masters! That should be earthshattering for some ....

No news, Wolff posted it a couple of years ago, Chuck agreed it and if you go to Ron Rambach's Music Matters site it's clearly stated that after October 30, 1958, BN monos were 50% channels' fold down.

http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/sound.html.

Said that, if you already have a collection of BN original monos, are you going to replace it with new stereo reissues because of that? I have a lot of "true" monos of other labels, including Prestige, VeeJay, ecc and the early Beatles/Stones/Dylan/James Brown, ecc. as you probably know stereo and mono mixes were radically different in the early rock records so the earth remains firm under the feets over here, so I believe it does in Sidewinder's garden..

BTW The Music Matters 45rpm Test Pressing that Ron sent to me (Horace Parlan BST 4043) sounds gorgeous, the best I heard from a reissue, unfortunately I haven't the original pressing of this particular title, nor mono or stereo, so I couldn't direct A/B compare, but I did with the Mosaic I have, and it was a no contest. Hoffman did a great job on it, way better then the Classics I own and closer to Van Gelder's early sound and spirit. So if you're in the market for the "new" best sounding BN reissues I warmly reccomend it, if you can afford the price and bare the annoyance of flip the record after every track.

Edited November 1, 2007 by porcy62

[brownie]

I prefer the sound of my mono 'Out to lunch' to the sound of my stereo copy of the same album (both have the NY labels).

If the mono was a fold-down, I am not going to complain.