Von & John

[Sundog]

I've been listening to a lot of Von Freeman lately getting "psyched" for his new release, which is quite good btw. Anyway, after listening to to all this Von I put on Coltrane's My Favorite Things and was struck at times by the uncanny similarity in tone, and phrasing by these two artists. Up until now I've viewed Von's tone like no other. Now I'm not quite so sure. Anyone else ever make this association?

[Jazzmoose]

Yeah, I hear what you mean. Unfortunately, I don't care for it...

[Chuck Nessa]

Dang, I thought some really hip poster was on a Von Freeman/John Young trip.......BUT NO............!

I don't hear the Coltrane connection. I thought the closest "sound" comparo was with Johnny Griffin. Back in the olden days of the '70s Von loaned me some tapes and acetates from the late'40s/early '50s. He started out on tenor and sounded like a Prez clone. He switched to alto and sounded just like Bird. He then switched back to the tenor and sounds like Von does now. Griffin went through the same sequence and they grew up in the same neighborhood. 20 years later Griffin said he heard a tune from one of my Freeman records on the radio (in his car, in France) and wondered when he recorded "Mr Lucky", only to realise it was Von.

Sorry you don't like it Moose.

The reason I thought of John Young at first is because I just listened to my Freeman cds to check out the "playability" and sound quality of a repressing. I was struck by the "routines" obvious on a number of tunes. With the exception of the intro to "Serenade In Blue", nothing was set up in advance - everything was directed by Von's hand signals during the recording. We made no 2nd takes.

[Sundog]

Dang, I thought some really hip poster was on a Von Freeman/John Young trip.......BUT NO............!

I don't hear the Coltrane connection.  I thought the closest "sound" comparo was with Johnny Griffin.  Back in the olden days of the '70s Von loaned me some tapes and acetates from the late'40s/early '50s. He started out on tenor and sounded like a Prez clone. He switched to alto and sounded just like Bird. He then switched back to the tenor and sounds like Von does now. Griffin went through the same sequence and they grew up in the same neighborhood.  20 years later Griffin said he heard a tune from one of my Freeman records on the radio (in his car, in France) and wondered when he recorded "Mr Lucky", only to realise it was Von.

Cool story!

I hear the connection most clearly on Summertime and But Not For Me from the My Favorite Things album. It's fairly subtle, however I don't think I'm too far out in making the connection. The way that Coltrane finishes certain phrases with that "quaver" really reminds me of Von. Conversely, Von's atonal sheets of sound flourishes at times remind me of Trane. Of course the power of suggestion and recent memory can be strong, and I was coming off a Von Binge!

Edited July 15, 2004 by Sundog

[Larry Kart]

Speaking of blind spots, I remember Ira Gitler telling me that he didn't care for Von because he though Von played out of tune. I know what he was referring to, but come on! Unless you grant Von his almost always precisely controlled/shaded intonational universe, which fits into/feeds into everything else he does, you've got no Von Freeman. And this from a man (i.e. Ira) with a deep love for Jackie McLean's music.

[JSngry]

Oh, but Jackie's from New York.

[relyles]

I don't hear any similarities between Von and Coltrane's sound. Once I thought I did hear a little of Vonski in John Stubblefield, but that is a stretch also.

[Clunky]

Dang, I thought some really hip poster was on a Von Freeman/John Young trip.......BUT NO............!

In anticipation of receiving my copy of Vonski Speaks I've been spinning Serenade & Blues this evening ( and Have no fear earlier on today in the car). Two epic sets, that I have never tired of hearing. Cliched though it is , there is always some new twist to hear on the these magnificent sets. I'm really struck how well John Young works with Von, are there any other sessions available with these two together. ?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Clunky

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I'm really struck how well John Young works with Von, are there any other sessions available with these two together. ?

Young is on Von's album "Doin' it right now" on Atlantic. He's also on George's album "New improved funk" (Groove Merchant), on which Von plays. Despite the title, there is a lot of interesting stuff on this.

MG

[Chuck Nessa]

They are also on Young and Foolish, originally on Daybreak vinyl and now on Challenge.

[paul secor]

I had forgotten that this was a five year old thread & when I read the title I assumed it was a Von Freeman/Johnny Griffin comparison.

[Patrick]

Thanks for bumping this thread up. I haven't yet placed my Nessa Records order, and would appreciate any further descriptions/insights about the June 1975 recordings (Serenade & Blues, Have No Fear). Currently, I own copies of three Von titles: Doin' It Right Now, Von & Ed, and You Talkin' to Me?! Have only recently opened the first two, and enjoy them. Am interested in any reactions beyond what I can read by Scott Yanow. Thanks

[Larry Kart]

The real parallel to Von is Frank Teschemacher. Chicago jazz, don'cha know.

[papsrus]

Thanks for bumping this thread up. I haven't yet placed my Nessa Records order, and would appreciate any further descriptions/insights about the June 1975 recordings (Serenade & Blues, Have No Fear). Currently, I own copies of three Von titles: Doin' It Right Now, Von & Ed, and You Talkin' to Me?! Have only recently opened the first two, and enjoy them. Am interested in any reactions beyond what I can read by Scott Yanow. Thanks

After listening to "Vonski Speaks," I ordered "Have No Fear" from Chuck and it hit the mailbox today. I am on my second spin now. Amazing recording (Japanese issue. I believe Chuck has some copies available). Freeman's on fire here. The thing that really strikes me about his playing is that nothing -- not a single note -- is predictable or cliché. Very much in the moment, this man.

The OP wondered if there was a Coltrane influence. This Jazz Times piece from 2001 does mention that during the mid-50s, Freeman and Coltrane were developing their sounds contemporaneously, and Coltrane's influence at the time was unlikely to extend beyond Philly. Any similarities were likely coincidental, the author, Harvey Pekar, says.

on Freeman’s earliest recorded jazz appearance may be the 1956 Hill date. At this time Hill was a sideman in Freeman’s band—and his piano predecessors were Ahmad Jamal and Chris Anderson. “After Dark,” a blues, was composed by Freeman and was his theme song. “Down Patrick” was Patrick’s piece. On “After Dark” Freeman only plays a chorus, but it’s a superb one, packed with ideas, which he opens with a muezzinlike cry that’s reminiscent of Coltrane’s work. But this was too early for Coltrane to have been influencing anyone outside his hometown, Philadelphia; the similarity is coincidental. Freeman also displays a sophisticated sense of rhythmic displacement during his “After Dark” solo, and a pleasingly full, broad tone, derived from Coleman Hawkins through a Chicago tenor man, Dave Young. About his influences Von says, “From Hawk I got power and tone; from Prez I got lyricism and I got Bird’s brain. Everybody else played at bebop; Bird was bebop.” Continuing about Young and his horizontally oriented concept, Freeman went on: “I purposely play like Prez [as an antidote] when I get too hung up on chords.”

The article's worth a read. It talks about Freeman's approach to phrasing, tone and improvisation in some detail.

And "Have No Fear" is a gem.

[JSngry]

You can't talk about Von's sound w/o also considering the overall "Chicago tenor sound". It's there, and it's real.

Trane, otoh, can't be considered outside of the overall "Philly tenor sound". It's there, too, and it's just as real, although it's not quite as eternal. But Jimmy Heath & Grover Washington share a certain core tonal character, just as do Trane, HJeath, & Benny Golson, and who else, etc.

Language inevitably has regional dialects.

[Chuck Nessa]

You can't talk about Von's sound w/o also considering the overall "Chicago tenor sound". It's there, and it's real.

Trane, otoh, can't be considered outside of the overall "Philly tenor sound". It's there, too, and it's just as real, although it's not quite as eternal. But Jimmy Heath & Grover Washington share a certain core tonal character, just as do Trane, HJeath, & Benny Golson, and who else, etc.

Language inevitably has regional dialects.

Von addresses this with typical modesty in the Pekar piece Paps mentions above:

When I asked Freeman about his influence on younger Chicago tenormen, such as Griffin, Gilmore and Jordan, he mentioned that their similarity probably had to do with all studying under Dyett. “Captain Dyett was one of a kind. He was everyone’s surrogate father".