Riverside- Bill Grauer Productions

[Leeway]

I have a fair number of LPs issued by Riverside Records- Bill Grauer Productions, 235 W. 46 St, NY. I have heard or read somewhere that Grauer turned out records with superior production values, and none of the LPs I have make me dispute that.

But I know little (nothing much really) about Grauer, his work, or his records. So, can anybody out there shed some biographical and/or discographical light on the man and his work?

[Chuck Nessa]

I hope Chris A comes online and answers this.

[Christiern]

Bill Grauer founded Riverside Records and was its driving force. I know that Orrin would like us to think that was Riverside personified and, indeed, he was the visible one in that partnership, but Bill generally had the last word.

He was related to broadcaster Ben Grauer (NBC, I believe) and he was an avid record collector, a slightly overweight, good humored man who bore a resemblance to the Charlie the Tuna cartoon character. In the late 1940s, Bill started a magazine called The Record Changer and Orrin Keepnews, a friend of his contributed to it Bill was the Editor-Publisher, Orin the Managing Editor). The magazine focused mainly on traditional jazz, which is what Bill and Orrin preferred at that time, and it was a sort of bible for record collectors; the last 20 or so pages were lists of records put up for auction by the day's most stalwarth collectors (including Francis Wolff, BTW).The two of them did a series of RCA-based reissues (10"LPs) for a supermarket promotion (I think it was a supermarket), and Started Riverside Records in 1953.

Orrin functioned mainly as session producer (A&R) and album annotator, while Grauer kept things going (quite creatively, I might add). Bill did not have a fraction of Orrin's ego, he was a down-to-earth guy who loved the music and everything connected with it. He was someone around whom the musicians could relax, which was not the case with Orrin.

As I said, it was Bill who kept Riverside going--I find it sad that Orrin rarely brings up his name, because he owes so much to Bill, and many of the deals, the signings, that Orrin takes credit for were actually Bill's decisions.

I was not at all surprised to see Riverside go down the drain soon after Bill's death.

The Armstrong 50th Birthday issue was a keeper....

Edited March 24, 2008 by Christiern

[Christiern]

and here is a look at one of Francis Wolff's auction pages...

[Big Al]

The 4-CD set The Riverside Records Story does a fair job of living up to its name. It was assembled and annotated by OK. I find the liners to be at times self-serving as well as self-deprecating. OK speaks fondly of the musicians he worked with at Riverside: Monk, Wes Montgomery, Cannonball & Nat Adderley, Bill Evans, etc.

As is the case with musicians of that caliber, the music is timeless, and will likely to lead you to other Riverside purchases (as it did with me).

Edited March 25, 2008 by Big Al

[Leeway]

Thanks Christiern for the informative and insightful post.

[ajf67]

Thanks Christiern for the informative and insightful post.

Ditto.

And thanks for starting this thread. I don't think Riverside gets its due because it put out some outstanding releases. Most of what I know about it comes from Keepnews' book, which sounds like it should be taken with a large grain of salt.

[mikeweil]

I don't think Riverside gets its due because it put out some outstanding releases. Most of what I know about it comes from Keepnews' book, which sounds like it should be taken with a large grain of salt.

My thoughts exactly!

Thanks a lot for starting the thread and Christiern's insightful post!

[kh1958]

Thanks Christiern for the informative and insightful post.

Ditto.

And thanks for starting this thread. I don't think Riverside gets its due because it put out some outstanding releases. Most of what I know about it comes from Keepnews' book, which sounds like it should be taken with a large grain of salt.

A great label, even if the only artists it had recorded were Monk and Wes Montgomery.

As for getting its due, what a relief that there is not a large cadre of Riverside obsessives/exaggerators as in the case of Blue Note.

[Shrdlu]

Nevertheless, I am tired of the continual attacks on Orrin Keepnews. Enough already. Anyone would think that he had flown an airplane into a skyscraper. Whatever his shortcomings (and they are not evident to me from the notes and recordings), he also did a lot for us jazz lovers.

His many liner notes are quite interesting and informative.

Yes, I have not met the man, but I am happy with the notes and the sessions that he produced. I have no bias either way. These notes, and the recorded music are now all that we have.

Let's move on.

[Dan Gould]

Sorry Shrdlu, but I think that for whatever reason, (and please note, Chris, that the phrase "bitter old man" is not being bandied about) Chris feels a need to be what he considers a truth-teller when it comes to Keepnews and Grauer. In Chris' view, Orrin was mostly in charge of the stop-watch, that was the extent of his "producing".

[brownie]

Some Orrin Keepnews reminiscences and impressions of various people including Bill Grauer. Interview by Don Heckman:

http://www.grammy-awards.org/features/foun...9_keepnews.aspx

His take on Bill Grauer varies from what Christiern posted. I'll tend to believe Christiern once more...

Edited July 12, 2004 by brownie

[Big Al]

Some Orrin Keepnews reminiscences and impressions of various people including Bill Grauer. Interview by Don Heckman:

Like I said before, equal parts self-serving and self-deprecation.

[kh1958]

He (Orin Keepnews) used to post on the AOL jazz bulletin board. He was a bit gruff but had many interesting things to say.

[Christiern]

If you read the interview Brownie links to, you will see how Bill Grauer gets no more than a brief mention, and then only because Don Heckman (the interviewer) brought up his name. More glaring, however, is the fact that Orrin makes no mention of Randy Weston, who was instrumental (no pun intended) in Monk signing with Riverside. Also, Orrin makes no mention of why Monk left the label. He refused to go into the studio with Orrin, in spite of a remarkable offer from Bill Grauer, who wanted to do a series of Monk albums that graduated from a solo set to a duo, a trio, and all the way to a big band. When Robin Kelley's Monk biography is published, I think Orrin's gaps and exaggerations will be cleared up--at least as far as Monk is concerned.

I was hoping this would not turn into a Orrin bash, so this is all I will say about him, but I had to bring him up in my original response, because Bill Grauer (about whom this thread is, after all) cannot speak for himself.

[ajf67]

Interesting link, Brownie. Thanks for adding it.

Didn't mean for my post to add to piling on Keepnews. I really only know what I've read in his book, his liner notes and the little that comes through in books like the Bill Evans biography and others. So, I'm glad to hear others' views and links to get a fuller picture.

[Leeway]

Interesting link, Brownie. Thanks for adding it.

Didn't mean for my post to add to piling on Keepnews. I really only know what I've read in his book, his liner notes and the little that comes through in books like the Bill Evans biography and others. So, I'm glad to hear others' views and links to get a fuller picture.

AJF, which Keepnews book are your referring to?

Is it this one:

Keepnews, Orrin

The View from Within Jazz Writings 1948-1987

Oxford University Press, 1987

I also note that Keepnews and Grauer collaborated on a book. Anyone know of this one?:

[J.A.W.]

I also note that Keepnews and Grauer collaborated on a book.  Anyone know of this one?:

Keepnews, Orrin and Bill Grauer Jr

A Pictorial History of Jazz; People and Place from New Orleans to Modern Jazz

Crown, 1971

Yep, I have two editions of this book, the fifth (1963) impression of the 1958 edition and the revised 1966 edition. It's just what the title indicates, a history of jazz with short introductory chapters about the various jazz styles from the beginning through the then present day, and lots of pictures, of course.

[Harold_Z]

Yeah...I have a copy of that also.. I guess the '58 edition. It's an enjoyable book - very little text and primarily photos, A lot of which I haven't seen elsewhere.

[wolff]

Last thing:  Was there a "Riverside Sound," in terms of recording sound, something like RVG's Blue Note 'sound" ?

If by this you mean, "I think the essence of BN vinyl is the immediacy and presence of the sound; it's right in front of you. I think RVG aimed for that effect. The best ones make you feel you are right in Rudy's living room. .... Perhaps some people get bugged by this "in your face" quality, but I like it. "

IMO, two different animals and I've never taken note of a Riverside sound. I have a ton of OJC Riversides and a handlful of originals. What a great catalog Riverside has. I know Riverside has quite few records that are thought well of sound wise. Listened to some Bill Evans Riverside Lp's recently and nothing stood out other than the music, which is high praise in my book.

Edited July 13, 2004 by wolff

[Harold_Z]

I thought the sound was fine on most Riverside recordings, but I wasn't happy with the pressings, which contained more that their share of snap, crackle and pop.

Also I didn't like the sound on 78 era reissues, but back then there was very little to compare them to. The first King Oliver I ever heard was an lp called "Louis Armstrong 1923" and the sound was horrific.

[Bill Nelson]

If I've got this brain nugget right, in '63 Bill Grauer was left holding the bag trying to collect from all his independent distributors. Riverside was reeling into bankruptcy, even with 'hit' albums by Adderley, Evans, and Montgomery. Grauer checked-out for good in December, taking a leap from a tall building. **

For small labels, having major 'hits' can be a curse -- right away you've got cashflow problems.

** was told to me 20 years ago by a Riverside collector, who had most of their LPs recorded at 16 rpm.

[ajf67]

AJF, which Keepnews book are your referring to?

Is it this one:

Keepnews, Orrin

The View from Within Jazz Writings 1948-1987

Oxford University Press, 1987

Leeway,

I was referring to the first one, Jazz: The View from Within. Didn't know about the latter. The parts I found most interesting were the chapters on Monk and Bill Evans. It has his 1948 article from his original interview with Monk, some liner notes from Monk albums from 1955-60 and then the text he wrote and the session notes from the Complete Riverside Recordings of Thelonious Monk. The Evans chapter is the text from what looks like an Evans box set from 56-63. Other items are some of his book reviews, a defense of Lennie Bruce and the lalbum notes from the Two-fers from Wes Montgomery, Johnny Griffin, Cannonball Adderly, Nat Adderly, and the Bill Evans "Interplay Sessions." It starts with an Introduction that puts these items in context and then an afterword about jazz criticism.

[Christiern]

If I've got this brain nugget right, in '63 Bill Grauer was left holding the bag trying to collect from all his independent distributors. Riverside was reeling into bankruptcy, even with 'hit' albums by Adderley, Evans, and Montgomery. Grauer checked-out for good in December, taking a leap from a tall building. **

For small labels, having major 'hits' can be a curse -- right away you've got cashflow problems.

** was told to me 20 years ago by a Riverside collector, who had most of their LPs recorded at 16 rpm.

I don't know who that Riverside collector was, but he told you a tall tale. Also, Riverside did not issue 16 rpm discs, but Prestige did.

It was not about collecting money from distributors. Riverside produced far too many releases (that number made even more staggering because mono and stereo were released separately, i.e. each album came out in two versions) and shipped them to distributors without getting orders for them. The result was that many albums were returned--in the meantime, shipping documents showing impressive "sales" produced money that kept the company afloat. That m. o. was a contributing factor. After Bill's death (not as your friend described), Orrin tried to keep the label going, even renting a computer to calculate how many pressings the market could bear, but he never trusted the machine's data.

There was a lot of money wasted on odd projects at Riverside, such as a Judson release containing a six-minute imaginary race between two rare German automobiles. Bill wanted to stage and record (in stereo, of course) a bullfight at Yankee Stadium, but bullfights are unlawful here, and the lawyers failed to find a loophole!

[Bill Nelson]

Thanks, CA, for straightening my wild hares.

Speaking of Riverside Oddball Projects, how about that series of at least a dozen auto racing LPs. (During a blindfold test, how can you tell them apart?)

Also: jazz LPs that played from the INSIDE OUT-- and in colored vinyl.