Some thoughts on RVG masters

[J.A.W.]

Click here. Edited July 11, 2004 by J.A.W.

[Claude]

Thanks for the link, Hans.

When Steve Hoffman writes about Van Gelder recordings, he usually refers to Prestige sessions which he remastered for the DCC label (Miles, Trane). However RVG created a slightly different sound for Blue Note.

[wolff]

I wonder who the nut case was that started that thread??

Always good to pump Hoffman for info. He's a great guy, as you can tell.

As you can read, I tried to bring up the unique sound of Blue Notes compared to the other labels RVG did. It's funny how you can get questions answered, but then it leads to more.....

He may have heard the Blue Train tapes for some reissue. Not really sure.

Next time I listen to my Prestige/New Jazz originals and reissues I will listen for that high end distortion that's more noticable on Blue Notes.

I believe he and Kevin Gray are currently working on the Prestige 45rpm vinyl reissues for Acoustic Sounds. They just cost too damn much or I'd get a few.

Regarding BN reissues, his responses lead me not to blame the remastering engineer as much. I wish he'd give Grudman, and others working on BN reissues, a call and tell them his findings.

[Leeway]

Steve's not the most modest guy is he? Maybe it's in the nature of recording engineers to be ego maniacs, or at least, extremely self-assured, and I don't exclude RVG from this characterization (based only on what I have read about his autocratic recording practices). I'm pretty loathe to take Hoffman's word on this as the final word. IMO, the proof is in the listening, and the listening on RVG's original BN albums is pretty damn good

Edited July 11, 2004 by Leeway

[Chuck Nessa]

I consider most of the Hoffman posts as advertizing. If you can't tell, I think most stuff under the "audiophile" umbrella is crap.

It is supposed to be about presenting music, not reading output of machines.

[Stefan Wood]

Amen!

[Brad]

I second Chuck's opinion. Much (too much) is made of the remastering as opposed to getting the music out to those who want to hear it.

[Leeway]

I second Chuck's opinion. Much (too much) is made of the remastering as opposed to getting the music out to those who want to hear it.

Well, maybe too much is made of it at times, but there is no doubt that a good remastering appreciably helps one's enjoyment of the music. Getting the music out to people is not incompatible with getting the music out to them in a manner that enhances the listening experience. Hoffman is an engineer, so his language is techno-geeky. Also, he likes to blow a lot of hot air about his achievements. But I wouldn't use his example as a basis to invalidate the idea of improved sound quality.

[Brad]

I agree with you in part. Yes, don't muck it up while remastering it but also don't throw the baby out with the bath water. In looking at that Hoffman forum, I found the whole tone a little patronizing towards Rudy, which bothers me, especially with the participation of some members here. It's not a science and it's imperfect as Mr. Hoffman recognizes.

[Leeway]

I agree with you in part.  Yes, don't muck it up while remastering it but also don't throw the baby out with the bath water.  In looking at that Hoffman forum, I found the whole tone a little patronizing towards Rudy, which bothers me, especially with the participation of some members here.  It's not a science and it's imperfect as Mr. Hoffman recognizes.

In looking at that Hoffman forum, I found the whole tone a little patronizing towards Rudy

Yes, agreed. In my old neighborhood, they would have said that Steve has a lot of CHUTZPAH to be talking about Rudy in that way. Maybe Steve has been putting his head behind too many TV sets and soaking up the electrical vibes

[RDK]

This thread and the sudden support for Rudy's work is certainly funny given the bashing his RVG remasters often get on this forum.

Say what you will about Hoffman - honestly, I don't find him patronizing or egotistical at all - but his work speaks for itself. His DCC versions of the OJCs are superior to the regular issues (I can't compare the newer SACDs) and it's been my experience that he knows what he's talking about.

I generally like most of the RVG remasters - some are truly wonderful - but there's no question that a lot of them are bright and "hot." Dunno why - many have debated this before, both here and on the old BN board. Since Rudy ain't talking, I appreciate that another engineer might be able to offer us some perspective on the issue.

[JSngry]

I think that this comment by Hoffman is getting lost in the shuffle:

Remember folks,

Rudy Van Gelder recorded stuff to sound good THEN, not now. THEN is what counted! People had cheap phonographs or Hi-Fi's, nothing like what we have now.

Rudy did all his "tricking" right on the master tape so he didn't have to redub and lose a generation.. In other words, he didn't record something and re-dub it adding compression, echo, EQ, etc., he did it all live in real time while the music was being recorded.

Roy DuNann and Howard Holzer at Contemporary recorded everything flat and dry and the "tricks" were added during LP disk mastering.

So, a Contemporary master tape today sounds amazing while a Prestige or Blue Note master tape needs a little "reverse trickery" to get it to sound better.

At the time though, the RVG recording technique made those Prestige and Blue Note LP's sing!

If you hear me bitching about how I still like my old LPs (even the crappier pressings) for pure sound (even though I buy a buttload of CDs for their scratchlessness and portability), this is why. It's magic what Rudy (and Rudy/Alfred in particular) did, but it's analog magic, and needs to be experienced in it's "natural state" to fully and properly experience it. I'm talking the "sound" here, not the music - the music itself would sound great on a freakin' flexidisc on the back of a box of Sugar Pops.

I'd probably feel the same way about 78s if I had the time, money, and space to get into that. I know a few people here have, and they seem to recommend it. The point is this -sound is not like visual, for some reason. You can digitize old movies and they look as good as new (although there might be some film purists who disagree, I don't know). But sound doesn't work that way, at least not for me.

Of course, it's all a compromise (recording), and if I was of the age where LPs were expensive as hell and all full of pops and such the first time I got to hear them, I'd not feel this way. But I'm not, so I got my "wall of sound", mementos of a day gone by, as well as "replicas" for the Brave New Digital World (to say nothing of new music specifically recorded in the digital realm, which is a whole nother animal, of course). If I want convineience, I go digital. But if I want to go back in time to the relive the first time I caught a good buzz and listened to JUJU for 3-4 hours straight, I go to the wall and pull out that old LP.

It's a lot more worn than the CD, but so am I.

[Tjazz]

It's a lot more worn than the CD, but so am I.

[wolff]

but it's analog magic, and needs to be experienced in it's "natural state" to fully and properly experience.....

But sound doesn't work that way, at least not for me.

..... But if I want to go back in time to the relive the first time I caught a good buzz and listened to JUJU for 3-4 hours straight, I go to the wall and pull out that old LP.

Sounds like we have a Japanese music lover here. I mean that as a complement. Many Japanese component makers strive for creating something along these lines.

Eventhough, I hear and point out what I feel are flaws in some RVG LP's at times, there is a ton of magic in them grooves and I've never questioned that. Nothing quite like it, at least for me. I feel in asking questions and being open about what I hear, feel and think I'm getting to understand what that magic is and why it's there. I have 250 BN titles on vinyl and CD and a curiousity. Why do some reissues lose their magic? What is it in some recordings that makes you want to leave the room(that 15 Khz peak will do it), though the music is great? And other questions along these lines. At this time, I feel much, not all, of the magic can be in unique recording/mastering and playback methods(tricks). I think the original Blue Note recording engineer talks about something similar in an interview I read regarding the RVG series.

Believe me, this a very part time 'obsession' with me and most of the time I just listen to the music.