First Impressions Of Elvin & Stanley Turrentine

[JSngry]

You know, I've often wondered about this. As somebody who came to jazz in the very early 1970s, Elvin Jones and Stanley Turrentine were already icons in their respective worlds, "sounds" that were immediately identifiable, and players who were "styles" unto themselves.

But how did these players' playing strike people who heard them when they first came on the scene? For instance, when Turrentine was first heard w/Max Roach's band, did he strike listeners then as somebody really different in terms of tone and concept, or did he seem to be just another gritty hard bop tenor player? Today, his difference pretty much jumps out of the speakers, but that's with the benefit of all the classic Blue Note, CTI, etc, recordings to reinforce it. How did he strike listeners then, those who were hearing him in "real time"?

Similarly, when I listen to Elvin's pre-Coltrane work today, it's pretty obvious to me that Elvin has always been Elvin - that ultra-loose, multi-limbed approach to time and swing seems to have been in place from Day One. Yet, in reading the reviews from back then, it seems that nobody really noticed just how different his thing was. Of course, as I understand it, Elvin's "personal situation" probably interefered with him getting a constant gig thing going for quite a while, which in turn probably led to only sporadic recordings and live appearances, so this irregular exposure to the "jazz world at large" no doubt made it easy to overllok his uniqueness. But still, I'd think that someboy THAT different and THAT swinging would have shook some people up long before the Trane gig. But maybe not.

I know that we have a few true vets around here who have been deep into the music long enough to have experienced these guys as they came on the scene. Larry Kart's memories of Prestige-era Jackie McLean as "being the only Jackie we had", and how those recordings struck him then sticks in my memory in this regard. I'd very much enjoy hearing similar comments on these two players from people who experienced them, not after the fact (as so many, including myself, have had to), but as it really happened.

Geezers, the floor is yours!

Edited July 8, 2004 by JSngry

[Chuck Nessa]

Elvin first. I had him on a few dates before I really connected - that record was Impulse! A-21 COLTRANE. Now in retrospect I think that was "correct". I think Coltrane brought out the best in E. I think he needed to be really pushed to be at his best and no one before or after did that like JC.

My first Stanley was on Roach's QUIET AS IT'S KEPT. I was more impressed with his brother. I first really "sat up" on the Parlan dates. Unlike many, I don't like any of his post BN dates. For me, he does not "play the same" in other contexts.

Edited July 8, 2004 by Chuck Nessa

[Sundog]

I'd very much enjoy hearing similar comments on these two players from people who experienced them, not after the fact (as so many, including myself, have had to), but as it really happened.

Yeah, putting certain players in the context of their times is something I constantly try to do. It's certainly an interesting way to view players relative merits and contributions. As per usual, I'm not qualified on this particular subject matter, so bring on the geezers! B)

[JSngry]

Chuck, I'm very curious about this one - how did Elvin strike you on Sonny's Vanguard date?

[Larry Kart]

Stanley I first heard on that excellent Tommy Turrentine Time LP. I thought he was very nice but perhaps a little crude in that context, like he'd rather be playing another kind of music. I think I was right. The next time I heard him I think was on that Blue Note album with Les McCann and Candy Finch, which was just a riot, I thought -- a nutty delight. I like the BN Stanley best but also enjoyed that CTI big jukebox hit of his whose name I can't recall right now. After that, things got a bit mechanical maybe, but every time I heard him live in later years in a blowing context, he was a gas.

Elvin I first heard pretty early -- either on the "Tommy Flanagan Overseas" (New Jazz) album (all on brushes and amazingly unlike any brush work prior to that) or on one side of Red Rodney's "Red Arrow" (Signal), both 1957, then on the Donald Byrd-Pepper Adams "10 to 4 at the Five Spot" (Riverside). It seemed fairly clear that there was something new going on here time-wise, something elliptical for want of a better term (in the liner notes to the J.J. Johnson Mosaic set, there's a fine discusssion of this by Bobby Jaspar). Also, I had a friend who was a very good drummer, and he may have made me that much more alert to what was happening. On the whole, though, the really big Elvin thing hit me when it hit everybody else -- when he joined Coltrane. I remember two moments from that band's second engagement in Chicago, at the Sutherland Lounge in the spring of 1961. First, my drummer-friend's girlfriend (a rather fey type) gave Elvin a box of chocolate chip cookies she'd baked for him; he was delighted. Second, on another night Elvin was late for the second set, then came downstairs from his room (the Sutherland was a hotel) and strolled into the lounge completely unclothed (and no doubt a bit wasted). How, and how quickly, this situation was resolved I don't know; I wasn't a witness but know and trust the people who were.

[Chuck Nessa]

Chuck, I'm very curious about this one - how did Elvin strike you on Sonny's Vanguard date?

I was bummed Pete LaRoca wasn't the drummer throughout. I thought he and Ware would have been ideal. I felt the same way about the Red Rodney date - I wished PJJ was on both sides.

To me Elvin seemed a poor sub for AT, Bu, PJJ. etc. I think Elvin has a unique feel which is not right for all players. I do not think he was ideal for Rollins, Ornette or Wayne.

Edited July 9, 2004 by Chuck Nessa

[Larry Kart]

I think I know (and agree with) what Chuck means -- though I do like both sides of Rodney's "Red Arrow." Elvin was very one-way rhythmically -- elliptical and/or rotational -- and while that way could be as vast as all outdoors, it certainly didn't fit everyone. To those Chuck mentioned, I'd add Earl Hines and Cecil Taylor.

[blue lake]

Chuck, I understand about Elvin and Sonny at the Vanguard, but what about the second time around, with East Broadway Rundown, especially "Blessing In Disguise"?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Since the Rollins Vanguard date was LaRoca's very first recording (he was 19, pretty fresh out of NY's High School of Music & Art), I'm curious as to why Chuck was more into Pete than Elvin - had you heard Pete on a gig or was it solely based on what was on the record?

Mike

[Chuck Nessa]

Mike assumes I buy recordings in chronological order. IIRC, New Soil was my introduction to Mr. Sims.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Good point, though if you are in the habit of getting "the new" record by whoever when it comes out (and you're buying them when they're making them), I guess you'd keep fairly close to chronological. New Soil is pretty darn near the ground floor for LaRoca. It was his third issued date, I think.

Mike

[Chuck Nessa]

Good point, though if you are in the habit of getting "the new" record by whoever when it comes out (and you're buying them when they're making them), I guess you'd keep fairly close to chronological. New Soil is pretty darn near the ground floor for LaRoca. It was his third issued date, I think.

Mike

I was a penniless student at the time and had maybe 200 lps.

[brownie]

An illuminating article by Bobby Jaspar in Jazz Hot back in 1958 on the Jones drummers (Elvin and Philly Joe) brought the attention to Elvin Jones who was not very well known in Europe around then. Jaspar's article was revelation that a new style of drumming was evolving and Elvin Jones was its master. Jaspar of course had had all the time needed to study Elvin's drumming technique when the two played in JJ Johnson quintet.

Then the discovery of the Rollins at Village Vanguard BN album confirmed the validity of what Jaspar was writing about. That album still remains my very favorite Rollins. And the playing of Wilbur Ware and Elvin Jones around Rollins remains one those moments of beauty that makes jazz the unique music it is.

I did not catch that early on Turrentine. It took a friend who was a Stanley Turrentine freak to bring attention to Turrentine's playing. When that friend came to my place, he would head straight to the Turrentine albums and would not listen to anything else. That was back around 1963.

[Larry Kart]

It's that Jaspar Jazz Hot article, or excerpts from it, that's included in the J.J. Mosaic booklet.

[brownie]

It's that Jaspar Jazz Hot article, or excerpts from it, that's included in the J.J. Mosaic booklet.

Never got around to buying the JJ Johnson Mosaic box and never saw the booklet. I had the original LPs of that set. I know the Bobby Jaspar article was reprinted shortly after its appearance in Jazz Hot in the british Jazz Journal.

[Shrdlu]

I would say that I'm pretty old - at least, old enough to have been around when Elvin and Stanley first became well-known on records.

When I first heard them, I was still heavily into Brubeck, whose music was a lot simpler and lighter, of course. But I immediately liked both of them.

My first exposure to Elvin was on the Coltrane Village Vanguard LP, which I mostly liked at once, though Trane's playing (not Elvin's) on "Chasin' The Trane" was a bit much to swallow. (It is still not a big favorite of mine.) I was immediately hooked on Elvin's style.

I first heard Stanley on the Duke Jordan LP, though I soon acquired other albums featuring him, notably "Back At The Chicken Shack". His playing was another "love at first hearing". I don't think he has ever done a session better than that Jordan album, though the Smith session is also hard to beat.

[Guest youmustbe]

I first saw Elvin at the Village Gate in 1961. Could not belive that someone could get that much sound out of the drums. Flailing at the kit, and I don't mean that negatively. But in 63, when Roy Haynes came into Trane's quartet, I saw and heard another way of keeping the intesity. So, when Elvin came back, I didn't dig it anymore, as great as he still was. Was glad when Rashied Ali came. (Those gigs when Elvin and Rashied were both in the band were comical. Elvin's drums up front, Rashied's off to the side, Elvin would come late, as the band was playing, make a grand entrance, sit down at the kit, and WHAM!!))

I forget who, but somebody told me how Trane would come into the Jazz Gallery around 61 or so, between sets at Birdland, and compain about how loud Elvin was and wanted to get someone else.

[brownie]

I forget who, but somebody told me how Trane would come into the Jazz Gallery around 61 or so, between sets at Birdland, and compain about how loud Elvin was and wanted to get someone else.

Not that I doubt that. Not at all. But it sure took Coltrane a long time to find another worthy drummer since Elvin Jones was playing drums with him for more than four more years. And when I heard them during their European tour of 1965, the chemistry was still explosive.