Jackie McLean

[JSngry]

 

[soulpope]

16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

 

A true master .... simply superb ....

[danasgoodstuff]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

 

OK, but he's Wilbur Ware....

[JSngry]

 

[danasgoodstuff]

30 minutes ago, JSngry said:

 

No, put that bow away!

[JSngry]

No, music is too big for that! Besides, it's a violin, not a tuba!

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Then gimme a tuba, or a Sousaphone, or better yet a bass sax.  Try bowing that!

[Chuck Nessa]

35 minutes ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Then gimme a tuba, or a Sousaphone, or better yet a bass sax.  Try bowing that!

E flat tuba G

[JSngry]

I don't understand why you would want to bow a tuba, or how you could? At least not in any traditional sense.

Please advise.

[soulpope]

In case bowing is requested ....

[soulpope]

Both ways ....

[Peter Friedman]

Never thought Paul Chambers was a particularly effective jazz player while using the bow.

I have heard John Clayton many times, and while I still prefer to hear him play pizzicato, he is a  very good arco player.

[Gheorghe]

Wow, all those bass fiddles on the thread about JackieMcLean.

I´d like to go back to one of his albums that was mentioned here: ´Bout Soul.

I should give " ´Bout Soul" another chance. If I remember I didn´t spin it often.

I think Jackie McLean in the 60´s was eager to reach other areas of sound , that´s why his music became more and more open and just as a cross between the old hardbop and the new free jazz. He just tried to check out how much he can get "out" of the traditional changes and rhythm patterns (Destination Out) without loosing the boundaries of modern jazz.

The next step was New and Old Gospels with Ornette on trumpet, but this still had the swing that maybe Alfred Lion and Francis Wolfff demanded (it must schwing).

And maybe after that he wanted to try something totally free, completly out like let´s say the New York Contemporary Five or all those ESP albums that came out. And that´s what it seems to be, a complete free jazz album where you avoid changes and avoid a traditional beat. So it´s even farer out than much of Ornette Coleman´s stuff, because even with Ornette you have sections where the bass just walks .

Ornette´s two last albums for BN from 1968 sound much more traditional than Jackie´s 1967 Bout Soul.

But it seems that even JackieMc Lean thought that it´s a bit too much of atonal a-rhythmic stuff on Bout Soul, because after this , his recordings were much more conventional, starting with "Demon´s Dance", and so on through the 70´s and the next 3 decades.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Gheorghe

[ep1str0phy]

A (possibly) bizarre post, but most certainly of interest - this is essentially a reunion show for the One Step Beyond band. Of particular note is that Jackie isn't even on this recording. According to the YouTube comments, he was in a car accident. James Spaulding subs. Woody Shaw and Ron Carter also feature, with Moncur, Hutcherson, and Williams returning.

The lack of McLean robs this music of some necessary surrealism, but Spaulding acquits himself well. The heads are a little shambolic, and "Frankenstein" in particular sounds like it was performed with only minimal rehearsal. Overall, however, the music is excellent. Tony and Ron are playing in full-on maximalist/VSOP mode, but it works here. Moncur sounds like his old self, Hutcherson is appropriately lyrical, and Shaw offers a bit of vintage fire.

I was at an open air gig last Saturday where the bandleader had us play "Ghost Town" off of lead sheets. It was not great. What I came to realize - and this was confirmed by a quick spin of the record later that day - is that the One Step Beyond music is largely very "in." It's all modal structures with few hairy edges. The abstraction is derived from the band's interplay and the energy of the performances.

I guess I had misremembered things. When McLean did veer into actual free jazz later in his Blue Note tenure, the music lost some of its identity. To me, this both (a) reconfirms the primacy of that stretch from Let Freedom Ring to '65 or so, which is truly unique in character, and (b) validates the notion that the free jazz music of the '60s wasn't just something you could slump into, regardless of good intentions. 

[Gheorghe]

22 hours ago, ep1str0phy said:

A (possibly) bizarre post, but most certainly of interest - this is essentially a reunion show for the One Step Beyond band. Of particular note is that Jackie isn't even on this recording. According to the YouTube comments, he was in a car accident. James Spaulding subs. Woody Shaw and Ron Carter also feature, with Moncur, Hutcherson, and Williams returning.

The lack of McLean robs this music of some necessary surrealism, but Spaulding acquits himself well. The heads are a little shambolic, and "Frankenstein" in particular sounds like it was performed with only minimal rehearsal. Overall, however, the music is excellent. Tony and Ron are playing in full-on maximalist/VSOP mode, but it works here. Moncur sounds like his old self, Hutcherson is appropriately lyrical, and Shaw offers a bit of vintage fire.

I was at an open air gig last Saturday where the bandleader had us play "Ghost Town" off of lead sheets. It was not great. What I came to realize - and this was confirmed by a quick spin of the record later that day - is that the One Step Beyond music is largely very "in." It's all modal structures with few hairy edges. The abstraction is derived from the band's interplay and the energy of the performances.

I guess I had misremembered things. When McLean did veer into actual free jazz later in his Blue Note tenure, the music lost some of its identity. To me, this both (a) reconfirms the primacy of that stretch from Let Freedom Ring to '65 or so, which is truly unique in character, and (b) validates the notion that the free jazz music of the '60s wasn't just something you could slump into, regardless of good intentions. 

What a great writing, and by the way I had forgotten that thread and now realize I was the last who had written on it, but no one payin attention. So at least, I am pleased to read here something of substance about my favourite man on alto ! 

O think I saw some of those Mount Fujii stuff on youtube and it is great, but I always complaint that it is not on CD since I don´t really like to look at music from my PC than sittin back, closin my eyes and hear the stuff, every detail of it. 

I would love to have all that Mount Fuji material on CD. 

I saw  a kind of BN reunion that is very similar, in 1983 (McLean with Hutch, Herbie Lewis, Billy Higgins), but they played bop (the finest bop I ever had heard). 

About Ron-Tony: Well I think I grew up with that VSOP sound, it was the first acoustic that went around after years where you never would see an upright bass or hear a piano that is not an artificial keyboard....., and it has it thing, it has power and it really can push the soloists. 

Your theory about guys who came from bop and tried to get into free, as you say "slump into it", is very very interesting. Well, Rollins also tried it, but even less than Jackie McLean. 
It´s the same when the most famous Austrian Free-Jazzer wanted me in his band, but I had to say no, even if I hated to do it, but I just can´t find myself it in. 
He might tell me "just don´t figure out too much, just be yourself" (but hard to be myself if I don´t know very much about it.........what´s me myself----huh ? .... I don´t know.....). Those European Free Jazz-Elite was more "philosophical people" and I just like good music, fun and that´s it....

[ep1str0phy]

17 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Your theory about guys who came from bop and tried to get into free, as you say "slump into it", is very very interesting. Well, Rollins also tried it, but even less than Jackie McLean. 
It´s the same when the most famous Austrian Free-Jazzer wanted me in his band, but I had to say no, even if I hated to do it, but I just can´t find myself it in. 
He might tell me "just don´t figure out too much, just be yourself" (but hard to be myself if I don´t know very much about it.........what´s me myself----huh ? .... I don´t know.....). Those European Free Jazz-Elite was more "philosophical people" and I just like good music, fun and that´s it....

To be fair, I think that Jackie's experiments with free tempo music were earnest and purposeful. I just think that there was disconnect between how he understood things like harmony and forward motion and how the more naturalistic free players dealt with those concepts. 

My sense is that there were plenty of players who understood free music on some level but did not play it - e.g., openminded people like Gerald Wilson. Then there were players who could play in more open idioms, but whose approaches were somewhat incompatible with pure free playing - e.g., McLean, Dennis Charles, Bill Barron, etc. Then there were guys who were capable free players but probably didn't want anything to do with the music in a longterm sense - e.g., Rahsaan, Art Taylor, and so on.

[JSngry]

I think that Bill Barron thought "free" inside his own highly organized essence. Check out that 1965 Newport set he did with Cecil. Him & Jimmy Lyons were complimentary opposites there.

[felser]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

 Check out that 1965 Newport set he did with Cecil. 

Where do I find that?

[JSngry]

I got it from Wolfgang's Vault back when they were offering stuff like that for sale for download.

It's still up there but I have no idea how they do business now:

https://www.wolfgangs.com/music/cecil-taylor-quintet/audio/20020001-51297.html?tid=4844092

[ep1str0phy]

Just now, JSngry said:

I got it from Wolfgang's Vault back when they were offering stuff like that for sale for download.

It's still up there but I have no idea how they do business now:

https://www.wolfgangs.com/music/cecil-taylor-quintet/audio/20020001-51297.html?tid=4844092

I was just about to post this-

I enjoy this recording. W/regard to your point - although I think that Barron acquits himself well, it also sounds like there's a bit of a remove there. Barron very much strikes me as a post-bop cat who was fluid enough to hang with open structures. But Cecil's music is rooted in motivic interplay (e.g., the unit structures thing), which almost necessitated the invention of a new idiom on multiple instruments. It's the fine line that separates Jimmy Lyons from Ken McIntyre or, speaking in broader terms, Andrew Cyrille from, say, J.C. Moses. 

Speaking in pure hypotheticals, this is the kind of free idiom that I can see McLean getting close to. Late Coltrane had a constant (if not static) rhythmic engine, which is at odds with the momentum-oriented playing that McLean excelled at. I can imagine McLean slotting into the Lyons role well, especially if supported by a drummer as literate as Cyrille. 

[JSngry]

Bill Barron was already playing around Philly in the late 40s/early 50s, so he's probably pre-post-bop. As I hear it, he was always working on his own thing, using changes because that's what there was then.

Obviously he wasn't going to go "all the way" into Cecil's thing, but neither was he going to run away from it either.

I think that for Jackie, the free thing was a mental question more than a musical one. It seems to me that he needed a bigger room for his furniture, not a total remodel.

[Gheorghe]

4 hours ago, ep1str0phy said:

I was just about to post this-

I enjoy this recording. W/regard to your point - although I think that Barron acquits himself well, it also sounds like there's a bit of a remove there. Barron very much strikes me as a post-bop cat who was fluid enough to hang with open structures. But Cecil's music is rooted in motivic interplay (e.g., the unit structures thing), which almost necessitated the invention of a new idiom on multiple instruments. It's the fine line that separates Jimmy Lyons from Ken McIntyre or, speaking in broader terms, Andrew Cyrille from, say, J.C. Moses. 

Speaking in pure hypotheticals, this is the kind of free idiom that I can see McLean getting close to. Late Coltrane had a constant (if not static) rhythmic engine, which is at odds with the momentum-oriented playing that McLean excelled at. I can imagine McLean slotting into the Lyons role well, especially if supported by a drummer as literate as Cyrille. 

I read the name Bill Barron and NEVER had heard it. Had to google him. I only knew and loved Kenny Barron (didn´t know he had a brother Bill). Kenny Barron.... I had heard him with Ron Carter. Phantastic ! 

Jimmy Lyons is a favourite of mine too. His sound, it´s like Jackie Mac Leans case, it reminds me of gosple singer´s sound. Really deep black music history both of them. 
Andrew Cyrille great ! I love Cecil Taylor´s Unit Structures and El Conquistador. 
J.C. Moses is a wonderful drummer. He is really powerful and at home both in bop circles (he was fantastic with Bud Powell in 1964), and free forms. 
Ken McIntyre I heard on record if it is possible with Cecil Taylor, but I think he didn´t travel that much. Never saw him live. 

[felser]

15 hours ago, JSngry said:

I got it from Wolfgang's Vault back when they were offering stuff like that for sale for download.

It's still up there but I have no idea how they do business now:

https://www.wolfgangs.com/music/cecil-taylor-quintet/audio/20020001-51297.html?tid=4844092

Thanks.  Looks to be only subscription-based at this point.

[clifford_thornton]

15 hours ago, JSngry said:

I think that for Jackie, the free thing was a mental question more than a musical one. It seems to me that he needed a bigger room for his furniture, not a total remodel.

Love this... "bigger room for his furniture, not a total remodel." 

[DougFelt]