The Grateful Dead Dark Star

[AmirBagachelles]

Listen to the music play.

Folks - trust me on this: saying 5/8/77 is not Top 50 material is flat out WRONG. It's Top 10, despite what Latvala said in a published interview.

The whole first set is smoke, the Scar-Fire is smoke, the two guitar solos within Fire are unmatched anywere esp. the finale, the Dew solos and finale are over the top. Lots of other fine 2nd set moments too.

Once so many 5/77 shows were heard, this idea cropped up among jaded "collectors" that Cornell was somehow a mirage and not worthy of its rep. 5/21 and 5/22? You must be joking. Really. My friends and I thought that Latvala had lost his mind w/ DP3, not because it wasn't 5/8/77 but because it's kind of mellow, an odd choice from a high energy era. There were many great nights for sure, I would also list Binghamton 11/6, Rochester 11/5 and Springfield 4/23.

I must also say that as jazz listener now, there is a lot of Dead '77 that to me now is unlistenable, due to a lack of imagination and color in Garcia's playing; his tone was not great either in stretches. By '78, there is improvement and by the Spring of 1980, this is no longer an issue, lots of color and variety in his playing. I hope everyone will someday hear some Fall 1980 and Spring 1981 shows, they were really awesome, and remain very under-heard.

[Chalupa]

Listen to the music play.

Folks - trust me on this: saying 5/8/77 is not Top 50 material is flat out WRONG. It's Top 10, despite what Latvala said in a published interview.

The whole first set is smoke, the Scar-Fire is smoke, the two guitar solos within Fire are unmatched anywere esp. the finale, the Dew solos and finale are over the top. Lots of other fine 2nd set moments too.

Once so many 5/77 shows were heard, this idea cropped up among jaded "collectors" that Cornell was somehow a mirage and not worthy of its rep. 5/21 and 5/22? You must be joking. Really. My friends and I thought that Latvala had lost his mind w/ DP3, not because it wasn't 5/8/77 but because it's kind of mellow, an odd choice from a high energy era. There were many great nights for sure, I would also list Binghamton 11/6, Rochester 11/5 and Springfield 4/23.

Do you really think 5/8/77 holds up to any of the shows from Europe '72?? Or 8/27/72 or 9/21/72? 11/19/72? or the great Fillmore run of 2/27-3/2/69??? Not even in the same ballpark.

As the song goes... One man gathers what another man spills. B)

[Chalupa]

I must also say that as jazz listener now, there is a lot of Dead '77 that to me now is unlistenable, due to a lack of imagination and color in Garcia's playing; his tone was not great either in stretches. By '78, there is improvement and by the Spring of 1980, this is no longer an issue, lots of color and variety in his playing. I hope everyone will someday hear some Fall 1980 and Spring 1981 shows, they were really awesome, and remain very under-heard.

Now this I do agree with. I would only add that 78 is a hard year(for me) to listen to. Some great shows for sure but just as many uninspired ones where they just phoned it in. Keith is asleep for most of the performances.

Another weird thing is that after Latvala died there was this great influx of shows that people had been hoarding into general circulation. As a result I got to hear a lot of 73-74 shows which I had not heard before. After a steady diet of those shows I finally was able to "get" IASW and BB era Miles. Something I was unable to do previously.

Edited July 19, 2004 by Chalupa

[AmirBagachelles]

Yes I do put 5/8/77 in the ballpark and in the pantheon. Many do. Not uncommon.

If someone such as myself, who is experienced from more than 200 '77-'95 Dead shows and is knowledgeable and an active listener, comes out to recommend AN EXPERIENCE such as 5/8/77 to a new/reluctant listener, how can you possibly argue with that?

Take the ride.

[Chalupa]

Well you're entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. I mean that's why Baskin-Robbins has 31 flavors, right?

[AmirBagachelles]

Has anybody seen Festival Express yet? I am looking forward to it!

[Peter]

Ok, I'm about to vent so be forewarned! The Milwaukee County Library has a great music CD collection that I use extensively. However, over the years I've noticed that Grateful Dead CDs are WAY MORE likely to be not returned by borrowers. In the online library system the entry will show a due date (often years old), and an indication that the borrower has been billed of the unbreturned item (and presumably never paid or the item would be replaced by now). I was very happy to see that the Library got the Garcia box. There's a long line but I was moving up steadily. Persons one thru 5 returned it promptly, but No. 6 is now a week over due. Based on the library's track record with Dead Heads, I'm afraid that it'll never be returned, they'll bill him and he won't pay. It suck's for me and the over 16 people still on the waitting list.

[Tony Pusey]

Peter, dont be too harsh on those Dead Heads, they are probably too stoned to fit the records back in the jewel cases!

Actually, this in a way begs a larger question, for such a radical band the Dead were depressingly straight-sure you had all the anarchic stuff with the Diggers and the free shows, all their experiments to create alternatives to the conventional outlets:their own record label, Dead Heads, Fly by Night Tours, and so on,all useful outlaw mythology, and there were significant numbers of fans who took them at their word and articulated that sense of community which they implied. But the band always stopped one step short of the political contestation these steps implied and remained ìnside` Parrishes book, Home before daylight shows a banal hedonist lifestyle which would not be out of place in a Spinal Tap parody, just dope and groupies and hangers on -all the negative drag energy which put paid to the hopeful Bohemian experiments of the so called Summer of Love. ( No irony intended)

So ,to get back to your story I am not surprised that so many later day Dead Heads have bought into this pick and choose freedom myth-hey, property is theft right? The Dead were an alternative band, but alternative to what exactly? And they got many of the fans they deserved. He who makes half a revolution digs his own grave.

And to reiterate, I loved the Dead! But they were not what I thought they were, just another rock´n´roll band- but back then, I wanted them to be Volunteers!( of Amerika).

Edited August 5, 2004 by Tony Pusey

[Peter]

Yup, yer right on. When I was a kid I bought into all that stuff, but now I know better. People are just people, warts and all. Can't say that deadheads are any better than the rest . . . ., probably worse. Still love the music though.

[AmirBagachelles]

The Dead never subscribed to or promoted any utopian ideals. Their role, maybe not purposeful, was to cool the scene in SF, from exactly the kind of "revolutionary" tripe the Airplane were draped in. Jerry said it best, that the Dead were about getting stoned. But that statement doesn't go further to describe any particular lifestyle. And the few hundred (sometimes 000s) hardcore tourhounds we saw at every show constituted a small minority of the scene. Jerry died depressed, his death due in part to the cult obligations that was heaped upon him and his band, not because he or they couldn't live up to it. They had no interest in it, as far as I know, after 1970. They wanted to be good and be accepted as a band, and be financially successful. I thought they were always straight with that. By the late 80s, I knew several people who knew a few band members and how the band-fan thing functioned. The organization (that we could glimpse) turned out to be exactly as advertised, very decent people, nothing more and nothing less. Nobody took the band at their word on a vision, there was no word. And long live Grateful Dead music!!

[Tony Pusey]

Thanks Amir for the insights and your take on how the band saw themselves. you say that the band never promoted any utopian ideals, it sure looked like it during the early years and at this geogrphical distance. But maybe that was hype or stoned pipe dreams. Or perhaps they saw the implications of where it could take them and they shied away not wanting the responsibility, maybe in the end they just wanted to Party!

If you are correct then my whole post is one long rant.

I am depressed that the band who had the potential to really change the rock´n´roll paradigm ended up being another Corperation/Logo, just like Cola, McDonalds ( not Country Joe!) et al. I do not intend to demene individuals but their subjective understanding and the objective reality of their situation was not necessarily the same. Another example of how Capitalism recuperates each and every radical gesture and turns it into its opposite.

And I do not put the Dead in the same bag as tha Airplane whose revolutionary posturing was just a fashion statement. But perhaps you are right and what remains is the music. Perhaps that is enough. Perhaps.

Edited August 6, 2004 by Tony Pusey

[GregK]

This looks interesting (I found this on Steve Hoffman's site, which was taken from USA Today):

•Beyond Description (1973-1989), a sequel to Rhino's 10-disc The Golden Road (1965-1973) box set, arrives Oct. 26 with 15 hours of music on 12 discs. The $150 set holds 10 studio albums plus 65 previously unreleased tracks.

This should include an upgrade of Blues for Allah, which I have been waiting for. Also, there's word that Dicks Picks 19-24 will be available in stores for a brief period at the end of August

[AmirBagachelles]

Also big news is the extra 90 minutes of the movie, and the fact that it will finally be on DVD, hopefully w/ decent sound. Woo hoo! The '74 edition was a monster.

Also, Garcia Band from Kean College Feb-80 is coming out, from a multi-track tape. Great chance for more fans to hear the After Midnight - Eleanor Rigby jam.

[Guest akanalog]

i just found that archive.org site that seems to have like every dead show available for free download and i got excited but then i went to actually download something and nothing really made me excited to pick it up and i realized i guess i am sick of the dead. i think i am done with them as far as my own personal private listening goes. you know what has always bothered me about the dead is that for all the talk of the unpredictability and improv of a dead show, from like '77 on, the shows fell into a very standardized formmat. there was little to no jamming in set I and you were going to hear one of a few different strings of songs before drums>space (and these strung together songs were never really segued either-generally just petered in to each other). then there would be the ballad after space and one more up-tempo thing. also a lot of their covers did nothing for me-such as gimme some love. even '77, which is a highlight year-was basically not improv too much-just some jamming on top of the few songs that jammed in that year. '77 does have some nice points though-but it is more rock music than improvised jam music.

even the earlier stuff was kind of this way-from 72 to 74 you knew you were getting truckin>other one or dark star generally. of course this wasn't always the case, but it was a lot. and the first sets were generally just songs with little jamming, sometimes played more interestingly than others. also the jams in songs like dark star usually always went the same way-into what heads call the "tiger jam" which i find pretty damn annoying with garcia just doing that scraping skittling autowah feedback stuff. but i will give these years a break because the jamming inside the "jam" songs was improvisational and did go in many directions. the good stuff is good.

i am not crazy about most 71 stuff-too many shorter songs-but prior to that i think the dead really were exciting and imprvisational. i can still listen to '68 and '69 and '70 material-it is great and crazy stuff where the dead were mixing everything all together and there is a spirit of improvisation and excitment and you can hear the band trying out new things as they go.

i also have a spot in my heart for some of the '76 stuff because the dead tried to bring back some craziness to the setlist and throw in some weird segues-but it isn't the same as the early stuff as far as excitement.

and i have something in my heart for '79 because i like brent's crazy synth sounds during songs like "playing in the band" and "estimated prophet". but by '79 the band had already ossified a lot and was doing their standard routine.

they were a great rock band-just not as improvisational as some might think.

[AmirBagachelles]

Good post akanalog. The space was the place for improv, from '78 onward, and I generally loved it at the shows. Nice jams with Hornsby too in 1990/91, and some offbeat set lists here and there.

Try a taste of Phil and friends, its really an awesome tribute band, celebrating the 68-70 Dead. (only half kidding...) They are fun, and they make it up as they go.

I do heartily recommend seeing Phil play Golden Road, The Eleven, and Viola Lee Blues before you die.

[Tony Pusey]

Well Amir, I dont intend going anywhere just yet(!?) but where can I hear Phil play that set list? Sounds just up my (shaking?) street!

[AmirBagachelles]

www.philzone.com

I haven't seen any new tour dates for awhile but they will be back in the late Fall I would assume.

[sal]

Try a taste of Phil and friends, its really an awesome tribute band, celebrating the 68-70 Dead. (only half kidding...) They are fun, and they make it up as they go.

I saw Phil & Friends about 7 times between 2000 and 2002. They were great. They sounded much better than The Dead sound now. Jimmy Herring and Warren Haynes.....they played some great stuff.

[Tony Pusey]

Amir, found myself a bit intimidated when I looked at Philzone, since I haver downloaded a show before- have you a recomendation for a good place to start? Cheers.

[AmirBagachelles]

No I never have, but I have at least one friend who is not computer-savvy, and he does it mostly on the some Jerry site. He says it is time-consuming to execute the steps, but it does work well and he finds it worthwhile. He also found a JGB show (Waterbury CT '77) for which he searched for years, so he was thrilled.

[leeno]

just found this thread and wanted to chime in.

I actually have the Grateful Dead to thank for getting into jazz in the first place. When the live album "Without A Net" was released I was so amazed by Branford Marsalis' performance on 'Eyes of the World' that I immediately went out and bought all of his CDs. 500 Jazz CDs + later I ahve never looked back!

[Tony Pusey]

Welcome onboard Leeno.

[Matthew]

Funny put-down of the Dead by Clinton Heylin in his book Bob Dylan: Behind the Shades Revisted. Writing about the Dylan / Dead hookup, he writes:

... Dylan was tying himself to a band who had all the ambition and conceit of one of the great Coltrane quartets but the technical ability of the Buzzcocks.

Ouch! I've never heard any of the Dylan / Dead tapes, were they that bad together?

[GregK]

Funny put-down of the Dead by Clinton Heylin in his book Bob Dylan: Behind the Shades Revisted. Writing about the Dylan / Dead hookup, he writes:

... Dylan was tying himself to a band who had all the ambition and conceit of one of the great Coltrane quartets but the technical ability of the Buzzcocks.

Ouch! I've never heard any of the Dylan / Dead tapes, were they that bad together?

get Dylan and the Dead. It is far and away one of the most boring releases I have ever heard. There is nothing about it to recommend, which is a shame. It could have been so much more. The Dead sound tired and bland, Dylan sounds uninterested, and the whole record drags.

[Tony Pusey]

Hey! Whats wrong with the Buzzcocks?

(ever fallen in love with someone you shouldnt have fallen in love with...?)