The Grateful Dead Dark Star

[Guest]

Some say the changes in the keyboard seat governed the changes in the band, but it was just as much Jerry's guitars, from the fat tones of the early days to the thinner, almost acoustic sounds of the later years.

We could argue all night on which was the best, but noone can deny that Jerry knew how to make each one sing the way he wanted it to. Of course, he needed that extra deep sound in the early days to keep from being blown out by Phil.

[jazzbo]

No arguments from me!

I don't think I quite agree about the statement above about Weir pre 1972. . . . I have lots of stuff I listen to pre 1972 where Weir is quite audible and quite important. Anyway, not meaning to diminish the importance of Phil in the band pre 1972 or post!

[WD45]

Some say the changes in the keyboard seat governed the changes in the band, but it was just as much Jerry's guitars, from the fat tones of the early days to the thinner, almost acoustic sounds of the later years.

We could argue all night on which was the best, but noone can deny that Jerry knew how to make each one sing the way he wanted it to. Of course, he needed that extra deep sound in the early days to keep from being blown out by Phil.

Love those full, fat tones of the Les Paul and the SG. What was Jerry playing at the fillmore concerts that produced much of Live/Dead [and subsequent releases?]

[jazzbo]

SG. Cherry finish. Used to have one almost like that. (Different hardware). Great blues guitars!

[Peter]

I don't think I quite agree about the statement above about Weir pre 1972. . . . I have lots of stuff I listen to pre 1972 where Weir is quite audible and quite important. Anyway, not meaning to diminish the importance of Phil in the band pre 1972 or post!

It's all subjective of course, but it's fun to debate! To butress my arguement, I'd point to those times when the band was reaching a climax in a jam and Garcia would start playing rhythm (chords) to add more force to the climax. If Weir was carrying his weight, Garcia wouldn't have had to do that. I'd also point to the time when Weir & Pig were fired from the band. Pig's keyboard chops were limited, and while I think he was, as Lesh states in his book, a great blues shouter, there's only so many times you can listen to Love Light. His repertoire was too limited.

[jazzbo]

Well . . . I'm not sure I agree about the r-guitar thing. Two guitars chording forcefully have of course more weight than one, and that may have been exactly what Jerry "felt" was needed. . . . Didn't have to mean that Weir was deficient in any way at that point of the jam, just that Jerry might have wanted more chording weight by doubling the chords.

Weir is a "weird" guitarist. . . he's unconventional. . . but he plays damned fine guitar if you ask me. I love his lines and chords. I love Jerry's too. My one complaint about Weir is I think that Ibanez he played for years and years was not the best sounding guitar for the band. . . . But that's just my personal opinon more than anything. I don't feel its tone and texture blended as well as another might.

Anyway, it doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned. The band evolved and in MY opinion almost every member made great and important contributions through the first five to ten years. (I really don't like Hart's coming back to the band. . . I like him before he left, but rarely feel I want him there after he returned. That's just me and my love of Billy's drummin'!)

[Guest]

Jerry sure did play a lot of power chords in the eighties as a climax to a short jam or ten. And Morning Dew is notorious for Jerry's chordal orgasms. Bob did take a long time to blossom, but certainly by 71 was more than holding his own. Listen to his lead on the bridges between China Cat-Rider and the first leads on songs such as Hard to Handle. How he bends some of those crazy chords beats me--he stayed pretty unconventional. The 1968 "firing" was a wake up call that was well answered. Now, about all that eye shadow he took to wearing, that's another thing.

[Peter]

The point I was trying to make was if Weir's rhythm was stronger, Garcia could have continued playing lead rather than have to cover for Weir. Garcia has stated this himself. Of course in later years when Garica and Lesh were mailing it in (each under the influence of the substance of his choice) Weir really came into his own as a song writer and singer. I agree with you regarding Hart's return. especially in the 80s & 90s the band became rather plodding due, in part, to the twin drum arrangement.

In any case, I've been a fan for over 30 years now and saw them about 20 times, mostly in the late seventies with Keith & Donna, but a couple of times in the 80s in the Touch of Grey era. Saw them at the old Uptown theatre in Chicago a bunch of times. They used to do a run of 5 shows or so there every year. Saw them at Northen Illinois-DeKalb, Milwaukee, Madison, Twin Cites, Apline Valley. Summerfest of 1978 or 79 was very bad. Both the Dead & Allmann Bros were rained out.

[gdogus]

Now playing...

Grateful Dead - The Closing of Winterland: December 31, 1978

[jazzbo]

Okay. I've never seen Jerry say that, doesn't mean he didn't, also doesn't mean that every time he was playing rhythmn that was the case.. . . But I'll not argue it further.

I'm finding myself a lot more interested in 1965 to 1968 than I ever was before. Jerry was really in a particular "zone" during that time and it's a "zone" I really dig. Also liked the sound of the Guild and the other guitars he was using. And Pig and Billy and Phil and Bob. ..all sort of learning to run with the group feeling. . . .Neat stuff! Glad I downloaded me some whilest I could!

Edited December 10, 2005 by jazzbo

[gdogus]

Now playing:

Grateful Dead - March 24, 1973 • The Spectrum, Philadelphia, PA

very fine instrumentally, but one of those unfortunate nights when they had a lot of trouble getting it together vocally...

Edited December 10, 2005 by gdogus

[gdogus]

Now Playing...

Grateful Dead - May 6, 1989 • Frost Amphiteatre • Stanford University • Palo Alto, CA (SBD)

A great, somwhat-dark, latter-day show...

Edited December 11, 2005 by gdogus

[Matthew]

Listened to the three cd version of the Fillmore shows today, and I must admit I was underwhelmed. Some high points, but some not so high points also, (and I'm leaving out McKernan, who I have no use for -- sorry ). Sound is good though, but I don't feel so left out on missing the whole set now.

[Guest akanalog]

listening to some reconstruction...7/22/79. it's ok. not too deep.

i have a roger glenn LP on fantasy with the mizell brothers and the drummer is gaylord burch and i wondered why i never heard fo him before or after but here he is playing with jerry garcia in reconstruction.

another fantasy LP i like a lot, jerry hahn's "moses" (i think that is the name) has merl saunders on keyboards. wish that was reissued. i bet a lot of people in this thread would like that one-hahn doesn't sound like garcia but he has his own explorative thing going on and saunders sounds nice on it.

[jazzbo]

Cool Matthew. . . .Though I had the opposite reaction. . . the ten cd set has made me warm even more to Pigpen!

[Guest]

How could you not like the Pig? So cute and cuddly! Sometimes the rave ups aren't as good as they can be musically; but there are so many times when he reaches the sublime--when he moans on a good Smokestack Lightning or later Good Lovin's. But you either like the showmanship or you don't.

Check out August 28 1969 for an odd Family Dog set, apparantly Mickey and the Hartbeats. Jerry, Phil, Mickey, and Howard Wales on organ! A couple of very bluesy standards--It's a Sin and High Heel Sneakers--then a very different Wales influenced Dark Star suite. I'm not a big fan of Wales, but this might interest those who like the "jazzier" Dead.

[Tony Pusey]

akanalog, do you know the Jerry Hahn Brotherhood album on Columbia? been at least 25 years since I heard it, but I sure would like to see that one released on cd!

[Guest akanalog]

yeah i have the jerry hahn brotherhood album also.

some of it is pretty cool but overall the whole thing is a little "white", like they had been listening to too much of those crosby stills and nash kind of people. sort of a country rock kind of twang. it is ok though and they also cover ornette coleman for instance and it sounds fun with this white late 60s rock kind of vibe.

i like the fantasy hahn album more. deeper and more explorative and less obviously rock-influenced music.

[Matthew]

How could you not like the Pig? So cute and cuddly! Sometimes the rave ups aren't as good as they can be musically; but there are so many times when he reaches the sublime--when he moans on a good Smokestack Lightning or later Good Lovin's. But you either like the showmanship or you don't.

I always thought of Pigpen as rock's answer to Velma Middleton.

[Guest]

I always thought of Pigpen as rock's answer to Velma Middleton.

[jazzbo]

Hmmm. . . I love Velma Middleton as well. . . but I don't see a connection otherwise!

[Spontooneous]

Glad to see y'all mention my friend Jerry Hahn, alive and well in Wichita and still playing stuff that can spin your head around.

But on to my real query of the day:

My local used-disc dive has an inexpensive copy of the GD "Downhill From Here" DVD. Opinions on this one?

[Matthew]

Hmmm. . . I love Velma Middleton as well. . . but I don't see a connection otherwise!

I'm in the "Velma is in way over her head" camp. Apply that as you see fit to Pigpen (which, you don't have to at all, it's just my humble self thinking this).

[kenny weir]

On the basis of Dick's Picks and other live stuff I have, personally I'm in the Velma camp over the Donna camp any day of the week.

[Guest]

As to latter day dead dvds--you won't get that much off the video element; Jerry hardly moved at all after 1974, and Phil's about the same. Musically, that depends on which "Dead" you like the best. The GD Movie is pretty interesting.

Hopefully they will release "Sunshine Daydream," the acid laced film of the infamous 8-27-72 Fieldtrip concert. Even though the film students were high as Owsley kites, you can see them actually move--and there is a close-up of Garcia nailing the "tiger." The video from the 1970 Canadian tour is kind of fun.