mikeweil Posted June 25, 2004 Report Posted June 25, 2004 4: Slightly puzzled by this one. I?d wondered if it was one of those Coleman Hawkins solos: been a long while since I heard ?Picasso?, & know there?s a few other recorded examples. But there?s some traces of bebop here: e.g. the bit at 1:15 which is a favourite Charlie Parker lick. An odd transition at 2:18 which almost sounds like a splice. The jumps starting at 3:05 obviously had an impact on Dolphy?s ?Tenderly?. The fast passage at 3:27 sounds mistakably Hawkinsish! Anyway, this is surely Hawkins but it took a while for me to settle on that. Thanks for that detailed analysis, Nate! Once more Hawk has revealed as a link between swing and bebop. Bean rules!!! The Bean's unaccopanied solos in one place would be something to burn. I know about two of them: Picasso Hawk Variation, Pt. 1&2 Are there any more? I still have to get the rainbow Mist CD on Delmark. Any on there? That relation of Dolphy to Bean was observed by Eric Miller in his liner notes to the Dolphy Prestige box set: where he was melodically and Harmonically very advanced, his rhythmic phrasing was pretty much like Hawk's. Quote
MartyJazz Posted June 25, 2004 Report Posted June 25, 2004 The Bean's unaccopanied solos in one place would be something to burn. I know about two of them: Picasso Hawk Variation, Pt. 1&2 Are there any more? I still have to get the rainbow Mist CD on Delmark. Any on there? That relation of Dolphy to Bean was observed by Eric Miller in his liner notes to the Dolphy Prestige box set: where he was melodically and Harmonically very advanced, his rhythmic phrasing was pretty much like Hawk's. Quote
king ubu Posted June 25, 2004 Report Posted June 25, 2004 "Rainbow Mist" is a great disc! Get it! What is the best way to get a ) that famous "Body & Soul", and b ) some essential pre-1944 Hawk? (I have the Hawk/Berry disc on Commodore/Verve, and one Neatworks, corresponding to that one and earlier stuff, 34-something, I think). ubu Quote
Nate Dorward Posted June 25, 2004 Report Posted June 25, 2004 There's also a later solo called "Dali", which I haven't heard. It seems to have been issued on a disc of that title from Stash. Re: my comments on the solo: independent confirmation, I suppose, of Scott DeVeaux' thesis in The Birth of Bebop? (It places great emphasis on Hawkins' role in laying the groundwork for bebop.) Quote
RDK Posted June 28, 2004 Report Posted June 28, 2004 I hope to expand my comments later today, but things are crazed right now so let me at least offer what I have before the answers are posted... 1 No clue, but I’ll take a wild guess and bet that all the musicians are deceased… 2 Very nice! Lovely sax – light as air! – sounds a bit like Hodges, but I don’t think its him. 3 I’m liking this very much as well. A bit of a Latin rhythm to it… 4 Nice solo. This recording sounds quite old, but the playing seems more modern. A bootleg? 5 Wonderful! I’ll say it again: Wonderful! 6 “Tin Tin Deo.” Or one of those early Dizzy numbers; I always get the titles mixed up. 7 Sure sounds like Charlie Haden on base. Old & New Dreams? (Though not one of their albums that I have.) 10 Sounds almost more classical than jazz - almost ECM-ish. I'm sure I'll recognize the piano player. Sounds like Keith Jarrett but without the humming. Yeah, I'll go with a Jarrett solo piece, not live... 11 Great energy. Nice playing but this kind of "trad" stuff tends to sound the same to me (even when I really like it). This sounds more modern - it's stereo at least - so maybe something from the Dixieland revival of the late 50s? (Except for that tacked piano sound at 3 minutes; sounds like swap meet music.) Many thanks for the enjoyable discs! Quote
EKE BBB Posted June 28, 2004 Author Report Posted June 28, 2004 1 No clue, but I’ll take a wild guess and bet that all the musicians are deceased… That´s a very risky guess, man! Quote
EKE BBB Posted June 28, 2004 Author Report Posted June 28, 2004 Any more guesses? Answers are prepared. No need to worry for the rollover, Dan. Just a click on the button and I´ll leave space for Nate´s BFT B) Quote
mmilovan Posted July 5, 2004 Report Posted July 5, 2004 One more once, and now is the turn for disc number 2: Bonus disc: 1. Well, this is an easy one, I think. It can be O..., and probably some of first jazz recordings ever. Speaking from historic perspective, these are certainly some of the most important recordings of 20th century, but musically, I think they are not equal with for an example Freddy Kepard's takes recorded only few years after. Freddy is long forgotten early jazz man from 1920's, but some can listen carefully and notice brilliant technique and conception O... never had. Did we have thread devoted to Kepard? **1/2 2. This is, probably, typical music, and it can be B.. W....., and guitar can be B...... K...... I like all those combinations, and it is easy going, easy listening jazz for all the occasions ***1/2 3. I don't have idea for this one *** 4. Well, I know devotion of our friend to C...... H......., but this take was made before his famous recording with similar out of tempo structure. This is even better, but relatively unknown. Marvelous meditation ***** 5. At the beginning it was the same as 4. Don't know, it can be Trane, or someone who likes Trane a lot. **** 6. It is tricky one. It is bop standard "Woody N You", but I can not really tell whether it is master or his follower, precisely R... E....... or D... G........ But, oh, the music is very good ****1/2 7. Now, it can be something from Mingus' Workshop *** 8. Well, this is R... E...... - alternative take. Such wonderful music played with heart and passion. I think that early E..... had something he lost in later years, don't really know what it is. Maybe it is LOGIC of that fire, what, as time passed turn out to sparks. But, it is personal opinion only, some (J. L. Collier) says he had no conception in his early years. Anyway ***** 9. Well this pianist sounds like D... M......... but, I can not recognize context, so probably it is not D... Very colorful playing speaking of dynamic. **** 10. This is nice piano, also, but don't have idea about performer **** 11. Even if you don't know the performer, you can probably guess it is someone who continues NO tradition in personal way, so **** 1/2 Again, I must say BIG THANKS for your personal choice, Agustin, it is so wide open to all kinds of jazz styles, so it was pleasure to take part in BFT 13! Quote
EKE BBB Posted July 5, 2004 Author Report Posted July 5, 2004 You´re welcome, Milan. Now take a look at the answers.... ...and you´ll have a few surprises! Quote
EKE BBB Posted July 6, 2004 Author Report Posted July 6, 2004 1. Well, this is an easy one, I think. It can be O..., and probably some of first jazz recordings ever. Speaking from historic perspective, these are certainly some of the most important recordings of 20th century, but musically, I think they are not equal with for an example Freddy Kepard's takes recorded only few years after. Freddy is long forgotten early jazz man from 1920's, but some can listen carefully and notice brilliant technique and conception O... never had. Did we have thread devoted to Kepard? **1/2 I agree re your opinion on Keppard. A highly underrated trumpeter with a very distinctive tone, very New Orleans-ish. There´s an interesting volume covering 1923-27 in the King Jazz label. And, though agreeing in the quality of ODJB music, full of gimmicks and tricks, I must recognize I enjoy their freshness. It´s funny music! Besides this Timeless Records release, I also recommend another volume on King Jazz: "The ODJB in London 1919-20". Long life vintage jazz! B) Quote
EKE BBB Posted July 6, 2004 Author Report Posted July 6, 2004 5. At the beginning it was the same as 4. Don't know, it can be Trane, or someone who likes Trane a lot. **** Trane on alto? Did Coltrane ever record playing alto apart from his 1945 sessions with Jimmy Johnson big band & US Navy Band (rejected at their time); his 1946 sessions with Dexter Culbertson´s Navy Band; his recordings with Dizzy Gillespie Orchestra (1949) and Sextet (1950); and the Gene Ammons All Stars sessions on 1958? Quote
EKE BBB Posted July 6, 2004 Author Report Posted July 6, 2004 8. Well, this is R... E...... - alternative take. Such wonderful music played with heart and passion. I think that early E..... had something he lost in later years, don't really know what it is. Maybe it is LOGIC of that fire, what, as time passed turn out to sparks. But, it is personal opinion only, some (J. L. Collier) says he had no conception in his early years. Anyway ***** I KNEW you would nail that one! Good reflections on Little Jazz. In his early years, he was supposed to have learned a good ammount of Hawk´s solos and played them on trumpet. He was a real innovator, the actual link between Pops and Dizzy... But I do like his later years as well!!! Quote
EKE BBB Posted July 6, 2004 Author Report Posted July 6, 2004 9. Well this pianist sounds like D... M......... but, I can not recognize context, so probably it is not D... Very colorful playing speaking of dynamic. **** You not recognizing Buck Clayton, Dicky Wells or Earle Warren....? Quote
EKE BBB Posted July 6, 2004 Author Report Posted July 6, 2004 11. Even if you don't know the performer, you can probably guess it is someone who continues NO tradition in personal way, so **** 1/2 Next time I´ll see Canal Street Jazz Band live, I´ll tell them they were rated 4,5 stars in a blindfold test, with Ornette Coleman being rated 3 stars, ODJB 2,5, John Lewis & Paul Gonsalves 3,5... They´ll feel very happy and maybe they will raise their fees... Quote
mikeweil Posted July 6, 2004 Report Posted July 6, 2004 Trane on alto? Did Coltrane ever record playing alto apart from his 1945 sessions with Jimmy Johnson big band & US Navy Band (rejected at their time); his 1946 sessions with Dexter Culbertson´s Navy Band; his recordings with Dizzy Gillespie Orchestra (1949) and Sextet (1950); and the Gene Ammons All Stars sessions on 1958? He was reported playing alto on one of his last Japanese tours, or was that the electrified Varitone sax? But I think you have listed all of them. David Wild should know! Quote
EKE BBB Posted July 6, 2004 Author Report Posted July 6, 2004 Trane on alto? Did Coltrane ever record playing alto apart from his 1945 sessions with Jimmy Johnson big band & US Navy Band (rejected at their time); his 1946 sessions with Dexter Culbertson´s Navy Band; his recordings with Dizzy Gillespie Orchestra (1949) and Sextet (1950); and the Gene Ammons All Stars sessions on 1958? He was reported playing alto on one of his last Japanese tours, or was that the electrified Varitone sax? But I think you have listed all of them. David Wild should know! One more (from David Wild´s Wildplace): 670215 JOHN COLTRANE QUARTET: Personnel: John Coltrane, alto or tenor saxophone; Alice Coltrane, piano; Jimmy Garrison, bass; Rashied Ali, drums. Location: Van Gelder Studios,Englewood Cliffs NJ Date: February 15, 1967 Engineer: Rudy Van Gelder a. "Sun Star" (AT) (J. Coltrane) 8:05 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 b. "Sun Star" (J. Coltrane) 6:05 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 c. "Stellar Regions" (J. Coltrane) 3:31 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 d. "Stellar Regions" (AT) (J. Coltrane) 4:37 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 e. "Configuration" (J. Coltrane) 4:01 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 f. "Iris" (J. Coltrane) 3:50 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 g. "Offering" (J. Coltrane) 8:20 Imp A9120; more h. "Seraphic Light" (J. Coltrane) 8:54 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 i. "Tranesonic" (AT) (J. Coltrane) 2:48 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 j. "Tranesonic" (J. Coltrane) 4:14 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 k. "Jimmy’s Mode" (J. Coltrane) 5:58 Imp (CD) IMPD-169 NOTE: John Coltrane plays alto saxophone on both takes of "Tranesonic". The composition "Stellar Regions" was recorded a week later (February 22, 1967) as part of the Interstellar Space duet session, under the title "Venus". Titles for the different compositions from this session (with the exception of "Offering") were provided by Alice Coltrane. "Expression" was originally credited to this session but was in fact not recorded at this date. See the notes for a discussion. Quote
EKE BBB Posted July 6, 2004 Author Report Posted July 6, 2004 (edited) And yes, your Japanese tours: 660711 JOHN COLTRANE QUINTET: Personnel: John Coltrane, soprano, alto, tenor saxophones, percussion; Pharoah Sanders, alto, tenor saxophone, percussion; Alice Coltrane, piano; Jimmy Garrison, bass; Rashied Ali, drums. Location: 'Sankei Hall' Tokyo Japan Date: 7/11/66 Engineer: Tokyo Broadcasting System Radio Technical Group a. "Afro-Blue" (M. Santamaria) 39:10 Imp(J) YB 8508/8509/8510 b. "Peace On Earth" (J. Coltrane) 26:15 Imp(J) YB 8508/8509/8510 more © . "Bass Introduction" (J. Garrison) 7:30 Imp(J) YB8508/8509/8510 more d. "Crescent" (J. Coltrane) 41:45 Imp (J) YB 8508/8509/8510 more e. "Leo" (J. Coltrane) :53 Imp(J) YB 8508/8509/8510 more 660722 JOHN COLTRANE QUINTET: Personnel: John Coltrane, soprano, alto, tenor saxophone, percussion; Pharoah Sanders, alto, tenor saxophone, percussion; Alice Coltrane, piano; Jimmy Garrison, bass; Rashied Ali, drums. Location: 'Kosei-nenkin Hall' Tokyo Japan` Date: 7/22/66 Engineer: a. "Peace On Earth" (J. Coltrane) 26:04 Imp(J) IMR-9036C more b. "My Favorite Things" (R. Rodgers - O. Hammerstein) 56:14 Imp(J) IMR-9036C more c. "Meditations/Leo" (J. Coltrane) 45:31 Imp(J) IMR-9036C more NOTE:"Meditations" (660722c) refers to excerpts from that suite which introduce "Leo". NOTE:"Meditations" (660722c) refers to excerpts from that suite which introduce "Leo". Edited July 6, 2004 by EKE BBB Quote
mmilovan Posted July 8, 2004 Report Posted July 8, 2004 (edited) 9. Well this pianist sounds like D... M......... but, I can not recognize context, so probably it is not D... Very colorful playing speaking of dynamic. **** You not recognizing Buck Clayton, Dicky Wells or Earle Warren....? Yep... I noticed that terible fact also when read yours listing of musicians... Such dumb am I! :( I simply did not beleived my eyes. And I thought about pianist Dodo Marmarosa, but of course, it's not him! Edited July 8, 2004 by mmilovan Quote
mmilovan Posted July 8, 2004 Report Posted July 8, 2004 8. Well, this is R... E...... - alternative take. Such wonderful music played with heart and passion. I think that early E..... had something he lost in later years, don't really know what it is. Maybe it is LOGIC of that fire, what, as time passed turn out to sparks. But, it is personal opinion only, some (J. L. Collier) says he had no conception in his early years. Anyway ***** I KNEW you would nail that one! Good reflections on Little Jazz. In his early years, he was supposed to have learned a good ammount of Hawk´s solos and played them on trumpet. He was a real innovator, the actual link between Pops and Dizzy... But I do like his later years as well!!! Oh, I do not think his later playing was in any sense inferior to earlier one, only it was different, I think. So, that was my actual thought, I like him either early or late in his career... Quote
mmilovan Posted July 8, 2004 Report Posted July 8, 2004 (edited) 11. Even if you don't know the performer, you can probably guess it is someone who continues NO tradition in personal way, so **** 1/2 Next time I´ll see Canal Street Jazz Band live, I´ll tell them they were rated 4,5 stars in a blindfold test, with Ornette Coleman being rated 3 stars, ODJB 2,5, John Lewis & Paul Gonsalves 3,5... They´ll feel very happy and maybe they will raise their fees... Now, when NO or Dixieland is played with passion and real feeling, and when it is not just simple "going through" f.e. "Thin Roof Blues" or "When The Saints..." then it is good, and deserves 4,5 stars. Not an easy task for groups playing Dixie. They are often not serious, playing that music to amuze listeners, or make them laugh. I think it is even harder task for playing or re-creating swing today. It is always strugling with "Tom & Jerry cartoon music" observations. Edited July 8, 2004 by mmilovan Quote
mmilovan Posted July 8, 2004 Report Posted July 8, 2004 1. Well, this is an easy one, I think. It can be O..., and probably some of first jazz recordings ever. Speaking from historic perspective, these are certainly some of the most important recordings of 20th century, but musically, I think they are not equal with for an example Freddy Kepard's takes recorded only few years after. Freddy is long forgotten early jazz man from 1920's, but some can listen carefully and notice brilliant technique and conception O... never had. Did we have thread devoted to Kepard? **1/2 I agree re your opinion on Keppard. A highly underrated trumpeter with a very distinctive tone, very New Orleans-ish. There´s an interesting volume covering 1923-27 in the King Jazz label. And, though agreeing in the quality of ODJB music, full of gimmicks and tricks, I must recognize I enjoy their freshness. It´s funny music! Besides this Timeless Records release, I also recommend another volume on King Jazz: "The ODJB in London 1919-20". Long life vintage jazz! B) Reading yours lines, I thought I was little to sharp while puting marks on ODJB. Quote
Noj Posted July 12, 2004 Report Posted July 12, 2004 1. Kicking things off with a bang! These guys weren't kidding. Their identities are a mystery to me.**** 2. Slowing it way down, I want to say Paul Desmond here. Very nice, but very long(!).**** 3. I'm guessing this is a newer recording based on the sound of the piano. I like the drumming.*** 4. Amazing, what was this player hearing/following in his head to progress through these sounds? I don't have a guess.**** 5. At first I got a little worried this was going to be 12+ minutes of solo sax. I was relieved to hear the band kick in, and man they came in with a flurry! Great stuff.**** 6. Clifford Brown?***** 7. A bit too looney for my tastes. The bass reminds me of Buster Williams.** 8. Frantic paced little jammy! Fun!*** 9. No guess, not bad, not my favorite.*** 10. Beautiful.**** 11. Bring out the clowns for this circus! Not my bag.** Agustin, I have thoroughly enjoyed these two discs--although I liked disc one much better than the bonus disc. Muchas, muchas gracias amigo! Quote
EKE BBB Posted July 12, 2004 Author Report Posted July 12, 2004 Agustin, I have thoroughly enjoyed these two discs--although I liked disc one much better than the bonus disc. Muchas, muchas gracias amigo! Glad you like it, Noj. I think you´re among the few who liked disc 1 more than the bonus disc! Gracias por tus respuestas! Quote
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