Race and Racial Interaction, in America and beyond

[Rooster_Ties]

I agree, about slavery not being that long ago.

When I was younger (up through my mid-20's, so up until about 10 years ago), I had trouble understanding how anything prior to lives of my grandparents could possibly have any impact on people today. But, as I got older, I began to appreciate the subtle "ripple effect" that history has. Big events early in the 20th century, and even in the 19th century, can have big influences through the telling and retelling of stories between the generations. I think this could be particularly strong in subcultures where there is a stronger 'oral tradition' of story-telling, and (from what I know) I think African Americans would fit in this catagory. If one's history isn't being told in the schools, or in the main daily newspapers of record - then I think story-telling tends to pick up some of the slack, so to speak.

Thankfully newspapers and magizines are beginning to change (they've changed quite a lot, actualy, while at the same time I think they still have a ways to go). History books are a more complicated point for discussion. Such a difficult thing (honestly) to be more inclusive of others, without being at the expense of other information. And, I fear, the end result is often a much more watered down version of history, at the expense of all sides.

[Jazzmoose]

History books are a more complicated point for discussion. Such a difficult thing (honestly) to be more inclusive of others, without being at the expense of other information. And, I fear, the end result is often a much more watered down version of history, at the expense of all sides.

I think history books from the seventies up have done a pretty good job in being more inclusive, both of African-American history and other segments of the population traditionally marginalized by history. Women, for example.

Of course, if you're speaking about history textbooks, particularly those used in high schools and lower grades, their approach is still an incredibly boring joke. (And there's nothing more pointless than a boring joke!)

[Rooster_Ties]

Yeah, I was mostly talking about textbooks, which is how most of the population (black or white) ever sees any history in print.

I agree that real history books are doing a much, much better job (didn't mean to suggest otherwise).

[Noj]

My old high school history teacher, Mr. Dave Thomson, is an amazing intellect. He had memorized an anecdote for seemingly every moment in history, and had studied history so thoroughly that he could identify inaccuracies in our textbooks and provide details unavailable in the textbooks (our textbooks were actually pretty good). Dave's class was an every day lecture, like a college course. Tests were on a weekly basis in an essay/multiple choice format, with homework that consisted of essay questions and a long essay, typed, due every week. It was a challenging course, but each and every student got a 4 or above on the advanced placement test for US History. I got a 5 out of 5.

Dave Thomson made the class succeed by being demanding, by commanding respect, and indeed by earning respect with his fascinating lectures. He pounded home the lessons of US History and addressed the racial issues firmly and head on. Dave knew details of the horrors of slavery and the atrocities committed against Native Americans, as well as struggles other ethnicities faced as America developed. Dave was not afraid to paint pictures of historical figures or events that weren't as pretty as the textbook. Dave knew so much about all of American history it was incredible. He was never afraid to criticize America, but did so in a constructive manner.

Dave was one of the few teachers I had in public school that really made an impact on me. Even at the time I had the perspective to think of another teacher or two, "This professor should be ashamed of his/herself." Dave Thomson, underpaid, no question.

[Jazzmoose]

Wow! That sounds like one hell of a history teacher, noj; you were lucky to have him. (Shoot, I wish I could shake his hand just after hearing about him...)

[connoisseur series500]

I love studying history and do believe that people become trapped in their history, to an extent anyway.

I didn't take many history courses in college but read books after I got into the work world. Now it seems, I don't read as much as I used to; in fact hardly ever. I don't even have enough time to listen to all my jazz cds.

[Rooster_Ties]

I never took any history courses back in college, and now I really wish I had. Back then, they seemed like so much more work than whatever other classes I managed to find to complete the requirements outside of my major (which was computer science, and then later music - I have two B.A.'s)

Now (at the age of nearly 35), I'd be up for so many history courses, and even maybe a Constitutional Law class, or some 'crazy' things like that - topics I would have never touched with a ten-foot poll back in my late teens and early 20's.

Oh to win the lottery, and be able to go back to school full time...

[connoisseur series500]

Oh to win the lottery, and be able to go back to school full time...

I think about this from time to time. I went to college for six straight years from B.A. to M.A. By the time the six years were up I was FED UP with school and couldn't tear out of there fast enough.

I packed up my bags and took off for Asia. I returned 11 years later.

If I didn't have a wife and family to support I would definitely consider going back to school. I would also like to teach at a college, but M.As don't go very far these days. Oh well, the road not travelled....

[Rooster_Ties]

If I won the lottery, I'd be cherry-picking all the classes I would want to take, and probably not even worry too much about working towards a specific degree. (That is, if the university would let me do that.)

There are so many interests that I have now, that I didn't have 15 years ago. And my priorities were quite a bit different back then too, not that I was a "party animal", but I wasn't the most focussed student ever, either.

Oh to be young again.

[Christiern]

I had to drop out of school at 14 (moving to different countries and not knowing the languages there--at first), but I wish I had more formal education. Still it is amazing how much one can learn outside of a classroom if one really wants to.

[Jazzmoose]

I agree. Formal schooling can help you focus, and it can help those without inclination learn a little, but if you've got the hunger for knowledge, you'll find it.

[J Larsen]

If you have access to it, formal education has a large number of advantages. Access to incredible resources (e.g. research libraries, scholarly journals, and, if you're in the sciences, research instrumentation and data), access to researchers in your field, and access to others with similar interests (i.e. your fellow students). I'd say there's a lot more to it than just helping one focus. But yeah, I've known several self-taught people who I admired. A lot of it depends on where your interests are.

[Jazzmoose]

Let me try this one more time (in addition to testing Rooster Ties' 'continual edit' theory!):

I wouldn't suggest anyone could get the equivalent of a Doctorate simply through self-study, and I wouldn't recommend self-study for scientific learning. However, I've known too many halfwits with B.A.s in various liberal arts to say that the formal route is always superior. Like anything else, you get back what you put in.

Edited May 22, 2003 by Jazzmoose

[Rooster_Ties]

Steering this back on the "Race" topic (not that a little detour is a bad thing), but speaking of college - I was just thinking about my college days (from '87-'91 --- plus a couple extra years in the same college environment (until '93), getting another B.A. degree). Even back then, I had some interests in bridging that racial divide -- even before I ever knew anything about jazz, or before I had even heard "Kind of Blue" (which I don't think I heard until about 1989).

Back then, Rap music was becoming more popular in certain circles, and I remember taking a bit of a liking to "Public Enemy". And I got on a big "Spike Lee" kick too, seeing as many of his movies as I could. And I discovered some great early-70's soundtracks, like "Superfly" and Herbie's "Death Wish" soundtrack. And I remember being at quite a few school events that drew heavily on the Black student population (which numbered 50-75 students at most, out of 1,000 total - at a small liberal arts college in upstate Illinois (Knox College)). And I even remember once (maybe twice) being inside the 'theme' student housing (literally a house) that was primarily occupied by Black students (why I was there, I now have no idea).

And yet, in all that time - 4 years as a full-time student, 2 years as a half-time student, and 1 year just hangin' around the college (while I worked, that first year after the 2nd degree), I am struggling now to remember any acquaintanceships between myself and any African-American students. Well actually, I can kinda remember one or two, maybe, at most - with people who were in the college choir with me.

But you’d think, in all that time, I would have struck up at least a couple friendships with some other Black students. (But somehow I didn't.) I think part of it had to do with the fact that most of the Black students often socialized with each other, and their parties and other activities were mostly 'monochromatic'. Probably not too uncommon (even today). The campus environment (at Knox) at that time was approximately 87% white, 8% International students, and 5% Black.

Anyone here care to recollect their college experiences, relative to Race??

[connoisseur series500]

I had a lot of interaction with students of all races during my college years. My best friends, however, were white and my roommate was Jewish. I don't really remember much worth relating, but I did chase the "foreign" girls a bit in college. I had a Thai girlfriend and there was a very nice looking rich Lebanese girl during my undergraduate years...Oh, yeah, but this thread is about race relations; better get back on track...

I do remember one episode probably worth relating. One of my friends invited me and offered to drive me to a Toughman Competition in Toledo. I thought, "what the hell," why not?

We sat in a smoke-filled arena and had to sit through some rather dull bouts as these unschooled toughmen would windmill punch each other. Most ended in knockouts but there were a few which went to the judges to decide. I found the whole thing to be a bit redneck and the crowd cheered these redneck types.

We got down to either the semifinals or finals (I can't remember,) when a black fighter with some skills was paired against a big tough white guy who didn't. Round after round the white guy circled after the black guy who skillfully parried the clumsy attacks. He made the white guy look like a clumsy amateur, which is what he was. The bout went down to a decision. Unbelieveably the decision went to the white guy. The racist crowd roared their approval. I sat back into the bleachers horrified over the injustice and disgusted with the whole exhibition. All these fighters were for the most part unpolished and I didn't care for the rednecked and racist atmosphere.

I sat there with growing indignation as I watched the black fighter return to his seat a few rows from ringside to join his wife and kids. I jumped off my chair and worked my way over to his seat. He was still standing there with his gloves on. I grabbed one of his gloves as if to shake it and told him that he had won that fight, and anyone with any sense in his head knew of that fact. I do not recall his response as this was 24 years ago, but he probably nodded or something. I seem to recall that his wife or girlfriend seemed to appreciate my comments more. He was just tired. I then ran back into my seat and told my friend that I had had enough and wanted to leave.

I've never been back to one of those competitions again and never will go back. Once was enough!

Don't know if those events have changed since, but that one was a very unpleasant commentary about race.

Edited May 22, 2003 by connoisseur series500

[Rooster_Ties]

There was a sociology course taught one of the years I was in College, that my then girlfriend too, on the subject of "The Black Family". I seem to remember her doing her final project on images of Black families in the movies. I think she took a look at 4 or 5 movies, but the only two I can remember were "Superfly", and Spike Lee's "Crooklyn" - which I recently saw again for the first time since it came out, and found to be really a wonderfully entertaining movie ("Crooklyn").

I also remember, at the time, thinking how much I would have liked to have taken that class too. I'm pretty sure it was after I got even my 2nd degree (that last year I was still in that college town, before moving to Kansas City), and I was working nearly full-time at the time.

I'm sure, now, there would be a number of Black-Studies courses that would greatly interest me, especially those that focussed on either current issues (or culture), or relatively recent historical areas (meaning after 1900). I know. I know, the 1800's and before are critically important to the whole discussion of Black History, but in gneral, I've always been far more interested in the history of about the last 100 years.

[connoisseur series500]

I'm sure, now, there would be a number of Black-Studies courses that would greatly interest me, especially those that focussed on either current issues (or culture), or relatively recent historical areas (meaning after 1900). I know. I know, the 1800's and before are critically important to the whole discussion of Black History, but in gneral, I've always been far more interested in the history of about the last 100 years.

Christ, this brings back a forgotten memory.

I became quite active in the so-called Ethnic Studies department my final year in school. I think that I was rebelling against Academia in general and wanted to hang out with outcasts. These departments have since become very accepted and indeed de rigeur.

Anyway, the thing that I just remembered is that I asked the Head fo the Ethnic Studies Department to serve on my thesis committee; and my thesis dealt with the racism and imperialist themes in Joseph Conrad's books. I am now very much ashamed of the hogwash I put in to that thesis I had a pure sense of ideology and my heart was in the right place, and I even made some good points, but the basic flaw of the thing was that I was judging a 19th century author from a 20th century zeitgeist. It was not fair. Wish I could burn that thing Still, those last few years had their fun moments. I even attended a lecture held by James Baldwin who was friendly with the Ethnic Studies' chairman. Both have since died.

[Rooster_Ties]

My wife and I are in St. Louis this weekend, visiting my parents. We all went to a small-town festival (crafts, antique tractors and steam engines, country-cookin', etc...) today, and I just realized that of the nearly 500 to maybe as many as 1,000 people we saw today, both at the festival (out at the local fairgrounds), and in town itself, along with us being at a near-by lake, I don't think I remember seeing a single Black person the entire time I was there. Or if any, I'm positive the number was less than half-a-dozen.

This was in a small town with a population about about 5,700, located about halfway between St. Louis and Springfield, IL (meaning about an hour's drive north and slightly east of St. Louis).

But then I guess there are entire areas out in the country like this, meaning parts of Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, both Dakota's, hell - plenty of the state of Kansas is like this (out in the country, anyway).

I know, I know - this ain't new news to anybody (and not me either, when I stop to think about it), but it was just something I hadn't actually experienced in quite a long time.

Edited May 25, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[connoisseur series500]

I just realized that of the nearly 500 to maybe as many as 1,000 people we saw today, both at the festival (out at the local fairgrounds), and in town itself, along with us being at a near-by lake, I don't think I remember seeing a single Black person the entire time I was there. Or if any, I'm positive the number was less than half-a-dozen.

Yeah? Well I remember when I sat in the audience at a George W. Bush campaign rally at Springfield H.S. in Toledo that I noticed out of a couple thousand people or so, I could spot only one black person in the audience!

I guess that there are a few places that blacks just don't hang out!

[RainyDay]

Interesting thread. I especially appreciate comments by Jazzmouse and JSngry. Don't worry, I'm just lurking.

[JSngry]

But then I guess there are entire areas out in the country like this, meaning parts of Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, both Dakota's, hell - plenty of the state of Kansas is like this (out in the country, anyway).

Oh man, I played Eau Claire, Wisconsin in 1981 with a touring hotel show band (remember when they had those?) that was 50/50 Black & White. We got STARED at constantly for the two weeks we were there, and little kids actually wanted to touch the Black folks' hair. Apparently, they had never seen a real African-American in the flesh, and many of the adults had gotten so used to not being around anything but White folks that the presence of people of color jarred them a bit. Can't say there was any hostility, because there wasn't, but you could definitely tell that the local citizenry was taken aback.

With the same band, I played two other stints that proved to be pretty interesting, albeit after the fact. The first was in Uniontown, Pennsylvania, where a 3 week engagement became a 1 week engagement, and, without some heavy-duty legal threats from our agent, a 1 NIGHT engagement. Seems that unbeknownst to any of us (until after we left town), Uniontown was a Klan stronghold (so don't nobody think that that's just a Southern thing...), and they were leaning on the hotel management to get us out of there ASAP.

The other was in Coer D'Alene, Idaho, where we played out the contracted length of the engagement, but for some reason felt a really "funny" vibe everywhere we went. Well, come to find out (again, after leaving town) that the Aryan Nation was just beginning to make a splash in nearby Haden Lake, and nobody was really sure just WHAT was going to happen. It would have been nice to have known about this beforehand! But then again...

It was also in Coer D'Alene that I got to hear some of the most purely soulfull music I've ever heard in my life. We were on break on a Friday night, and walked through the hotel towards the banquet rooms, where we heard a C&W band playing one slow tearjerker after another, with a pedal steel player who was just CRYING like nothing I've ever heard before or since. When the moment seemed oportune, I opened the door to the room to see who this guy was. To my surprise, it was a 40-something looking African-American male wearing a cowboy hat, jeans and boots, looking and playing like this had been what he had been up to his entire life (and, it being Idaho and all, it probably WAS!). Well, I thought, being a Black pedal steel player in Idaho would certainly give ME something to play about, but after hearing a few weeks later about how the Aryan Nation was coming into its own, I realized that, as moved as I was for those few minutes, I had probably grasped only a fraction of what this cat was getting across in his music.

The thing is, there's nothing inherently wrong or evil with races and/or cultures sticking together naturally for social reasons. People DO tend to feel more comfortable with "their own kind", it's a perfectly normal characteristic of human nature, I think, going back to our earliest tribal days. The only time it becomes a problem is when the desire to stay together runs up against the need to intermingle (and that need might come about for any number of reasons), and the desire to stay together turns from a comfort and a pride into a hatred and an irrational fear. Civilizations evolve as a matter of couse, and homogeninity (sp?) cannot help but become a bad thing after a while, especially when the opportunity to have "new blood" introduced is consciously resisted.

Joe Zawinul once said that if incest is the surest way to weaken and destroy a people, then it follows that the surest way to strengthen them is to engage in interracial/intercultural bondings, literally and sybolically. That maight seem like a typically grandiose Zawinullian pronouncement, but as the "Global Villiage" (itself a not-too-long-ago "new" notion) continues to shrink to what will probably be a "Global Patio", it's definitely something to think about, and should not be dismissed out of hand. We're all going to have to figure out how to get along, and by any means necessary!

[Jazzmoose]

The thing is, there's nothing inherently wrong or evil with races and/or cultures sticking together naturally for social reasons. People DO tend to feel more comfortable with "their own kind", it's a perfectly normal characteristic of human nature, I think, going back to our earliest tribal days. The only time it becomes a problem is when the desire to stay together runs up against the need to intermingle (and that need might come about for any number of reasons), and the desire to stay together turns from a comfort and a pride into a hatred and an irrational fear. Civilizations evolve as a matter of couse, and homogeninity (sp?) cannot help but become a bad thing after a while, especially when the opportunity to have "new blood" introduced is consciously resisted.

Well, I agree with this to a point; the problem is, why do we still look at race as a big issue in picking "our kind"? The normal assumption is that it's always been this way, but that's not so. Prior to the development of the slave trade (referring to the European/African version; the internal African version was a whole different thing), racism wasn't an issue. Africans were around with the Greeks, the Romans, hell...the Catholic Church even had African saints (see Saint Morris, although you have to look for an illustration made prior to the slave trade; after it started, he became whiter and whiter, sort of an early Michael Jackson I suppose!).

[connoisseur series500]

Africans were around with the Greeks, the Romans, hell...the Catholic Church even had African saints (see Saint Morris, although you have to look for an illustration made prior to the slave trade; after it started, he became whiter and whiter, sort of an early Michael Jackson I suppose!).

St. Augustine came from Hippo in North Africa. He may not have been black but he was at least Berber or Arab or Phoenician/Carthaginian, and he came from Africa.

[connoisseur series500]

That gives me an idea: someone should start a thread called "Unknown great black figures in history" or something of the like. Here are a few:

--The Russian Poet, Alexandre Pushkin had some Ethiopian ancestry (of course, this means that he is "black" only to Americans who believe that if you have the slightest amount of Negro blood then you are BLACK all the way!!)

--Toussaint L'Overture and Henri Christophe: early leaders of the Haitian Revolution

--Mathew Henson: polar explorer who was the first to reach the North Pole (not Peary!!) Henson was the indespensible #2 man to Peary and he probably was the first human on the North Pole when he woke up early that morning to trek the final distances.

--Derek Walcott: Caribbean poet and Nobel prize winner. Great writer. Still alive.

--Maurice Ashley: first African-American chess grandmaster. Still active and presumably still getting better.

Any others anyone? It's too early in the morning for me to think.

[JSngry]

Depending on who you believe, Beethoven.