Race and Racial Interaction, in America and beyond

[Rooster_Ties]

I've wanted to bring up this topic for a long time, both here and even back on the BNBB, so here goes...

Maybe I should also mention, right up front, that I'm a white male, married, age 34, with no kids, who lives in the city in a mostly all-white neighborhood, although about 15% of our immediate neighbors (within 1 or 2 miles) are Hispanic. But, if you go just 2 or 3 miles due east of where I live, you start to get into the mostly all-Black neighborhood. (Kansas City, like I suspect most (but maybe not all?) bigger cities in America, borders on being 'hyper-segregated' in our living/neighborhood patterns.) I'm currently unemployed (since January), but my last work environment ('white collar', in Information Systems at the corporate headquarters of a Fortune 1000 company) was probably 90% White, with the remaining 10% mostly being made of up of various Asian, Indian, and Middle-Eastern minorities, with few Blacks.

Anyway, last Saturday I went to an interesting forum/round-table discussion, about the state of "Race Relations" in Kansas City and in the greater K.C. metropolitan area. At this forum, there was a period of Q&A with the panel - and one of my questions was selected and discussed by the whole group. My question was this:

"Kansas City is not very integrated, especially in our neighborhoods, our churches, and (although maybe to a lesser degree) in many of our work environments. What can White people do to get involved in improving race relations?? And, perhaps even more importantly, what can White people do to find ways to interact and socialize in more racially integrated circles??"

Various members of the panel had a few good suggestions, but the overall response (and struggle to respond) left me thinking that this really is a difficult question to answer, or at least here , and it probably is also in many communities. So, then, I pose the same question here...

For those interested, what can we all do (Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, etc...) to have more face-to-face interaction, in a positive and comfortable/casual setting, on a periodic regular basis, with people of different racial backgrounds??

For instance, I belong to a very dogmatically-liberal Unitarian Church in midtown Kansas City - where the social-circle I run in there (made up of mostly "30-somethings") has every kind of diversity you can think of, except racial diversity. And by other kinds of diversity, I mean things like gender, class (or at least income-level), gender-preference, single/married, kids/no-kids, city-dwellers/suburbanites, professionals, artists, students, you-name-it, and so on.... But as much as I like all that, I would love to find some regular social outlets that were more racially mixed.

A while back I played in a pool-league for a couple years, and our 'all-White' team sometimes played 'all-Black' teams - sometimes at our bar, sometimes at theirs, and I really enjoyed that. And I had some cool conversations once with a couple slightly-younger-than-me Black guys when we were all in a jury pool together all day long, a few years ago. And one or two of the jazz clubs in Kansas City draw a mixed crowd, somewhat. But you see my point - (at least in this town) one has to really look for opportunities to mix with others who are different. And even then, there often isn’t that much interaction.

Any thoughts on my questions above, or about this topic in general???

Thanks!! -- Rooster T.

PS: Yes, I'll admit it, based on my personal interests in Jazz, (perhaps obviously) I'm looking for more opportunities for Black/White interaction. But, that doesn't mean I'm any less open to other more diverse social-circles as well.

Edited May 9, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Jim Alfredson]

My main interaction with people of other races is through music. Most of the minorities I meet are musicians. Lansing is actually quite diversified and the bar I play at regularly (the ol' Green Door in downtown) has a very diverse clientele. Everybody and anybody goes there. And they all hang out and get along.

One of the best instances of different people learning how to get along that I've seen at the Green Door happened last fall. A man came in and stayed all night with some women friends and it was quite obvious that he was gay (he even asked me to dance with him!) Now the Green Door may be racially diverse, but not too many homosexuals go there. Lansing has a healthy homosexual community, but there is a way to go as far as acceptance goes.

Anyway, he was dancing the whole time, even during the band breaks (I play 70s funk and disco CDs during the break to keep the crowd dancing) and while on break I overheard this black woman say to her friends, "Look at that faggot out there! He should be ashamed of himself. What is he doing here?"

Through the night I kept watching her and him and she kept pointing and saying things to her friends. At one point he walked by her and she actually said something to him which I didn't hear. They began to talk, quite civil, and he got her to laugh somehow.

Long story short, by the end of the night he was sitting at her table and they were laughing together having a good time. I thought it was quite touching.

There are definately "black" and "white" neighborhoods here in Lansing. In fact, my wife and I recently put a bid on a house and my grandmother's first question after I told her where the house is located was "Is that a black neighborhood?" I told her it didn't matter to me.

This post is getting long and I have no real answers, just some examples from my hometown. This is a really hard question. The whole sense of community in our country has fallen apart. How many of us know and talk to our neighbors on a regular basis? If we can't even talk to our neighbors in our white neighborhoods, how can we talk to and interract with people of different races?

[Rooster_Ties]

Thanks b3, appreciate your feedback. Nice to hear stories like the one you described about the gay man, and the black woman her friends.

I would just post links to these, but articles in the Kansas City Star are only available on-line for one week; after that you gotta buy the articles for a tiny fee. So, here are two articles, the first one ran before the 'Race Relations' forum I attended last Saturday, and the second one ran right after the forum.

Posted on Fri, May. 02, 2003 

Community forum to discuss race relations, task force report

By JOHN SHULTZ

The Kansas City Star

One year later, a task force on racial bias has produced a report declaring discrimination a reality in Kansas City, and a commission with a simple charge: Fix it.

Members of the Mayor's Commission on Race urge patience as they work. They'll need it. Some in the community, embittered by what they described as Kansas City's history of good but ultimately fruitless -- and sometimes toothless -- intentions, question whether the commission can finish the job.

Area residents will have a chance to talk about the report and race relations in general at the "Advancing Race Relations in KC" forum Saturday morning at Rockhurst University. The forum is sponsored by The Kansas City Star's newsroom diversity committee and the Kansas City Association of Black Journalists.

The commission, which includes officials from the Urban League, the NAACP, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and the Kansas City Police Department, is using the task force report as a starting point.

The report called for creation of the commission to improve relations between minorities and law enforcement. But commission members say they are casting their nets wider.

"We are going to pay attention to (racial) profiling in retail, predatory lending issues, segregated communities. We have a lot of work to do," said Gwen Grant, a member of the commission and president of the Urban League.

Grant is well aware of skepticism about the commission's effectiveness. She thinks those doubts held down turnout during the task force's first public hearings "I don't call it apathy," Grant said. "Some people experience an uncomfortable numbness and think `What's the point? Nothing's going to change.' "

With that in mind, task force members urged quick action to inspire confidence. The group has joined with police officials in the department's efforts to make it easier to file citizen complaints against officers.

Grant said the group's goal is to work with community organizations that will help citizens file such complaints.

But if the commission is the most notable outgrowth of the report, some question whether it has a sufficiently high profile.

"The message is not getting out there," said Rita Valenciano, executive director of Apoyo, a family support and education program. "There's so many groups out there, the Civil Rights Consortium, KC Harmony...there may be a lot of overlap."

Mayor Kay Barnes counters that the race commission "is not something for show."

Commission members stress the importance of having the mayor's ear. And while Barnes measuredly stops short of vowing her support for the commission's moves and findings, she said she expected to back its efforts.

Others have criticized the group as being too heavy with high-ranking officials from the civil rights community and too light on neighborhood-level activists.

"I don't think a lot of people from the community level are involved," observed community activist Ron McMillan. "It's a blue-ribbon panel where they talk to the same old folks."

Alonzo Washington, who first called for a task force last year, then criticized its direction once it was formed, added that the lack of neighborhood activists hurt the panel's prestige.

"You lost half of the people who thought this was a solution right there," he said.

Barnes staunchly supports the commission's makeup.

"I was able to appoint a group of people for whom I have a great deal of respect," he said. "They have a good track record...all of them are activists by my definition."

Since the task force began its work, "there's a heightened awareness" of bias issues, Barnes said. She points to the efforts of the Kansas City Police Department, whose KC Together plan was sparked by complaints of racial profiling.

The plan, which seeks to greatly improve communication between the Police Department and residents, is already gaining momentum, said the Rev. Wallace Hartsfield, pastor of the Metropolitan Missionary Baptist Church.

"As neighborhood people trust the police and the police trust the neighborhoods, (the relationship) improves greatly," he said.

Anita Russell, head of the Kansas City NAACP and a member of the commission, stressed that it was the first such group, in terms of influence, that she'd seen appointed by the city. She is adamant that the commission will have an impact on race relations.

"Everyone on the commission," she said, "we don't want to waste our time; we want to see something come out of it.

"We're trying to fix something that's been broken for a long time, and it's going to take some time to do that."

The details "Finding Common Ground: Advancing Race Relations in KC," is a town hall meeting sponsored by The Kansas City Star's newsroom diversity committee and the Kansas City Association of Black Journalists.

Panelists will include Gwen Grant, president and CEO of the Urban League of Greater Kansas City; Donovan Mouton, the mayor's neighborhood advocate; Deputy Chief Kevin Masters of the Kansas City Police Department; Rita Valenciano, executive director of Apoyo; and Mark Zieman, editor and vice president of The Star.

and

Posted on Sun, May. 04, 2003 

Even small steps can make inroads against racism, panelists say

By KAREN UHLENHUTH

The Kansas City Star

At times, closing the racial divide can seem as difficult as getting your arms around an elephant's midriff.

The immensity of the task notwithstanding, a panel discussion Saturday yielded thoughts on how individuals can make small inroads into this persistent social issue.

Six panelists shared their thoughts on the state and future of race relations before audience members at Rockhurst University's Mabee Theater. The event was organized by the Kansas City Association of Black Journalists and The Kansas City Star.

The speakers agreed that despite advances, racial tensions and injustice persist. Solutions and definitive courses of action, however, were less clear cut.

Gwen Grant, president of the Urban League of Greater Kansas City, suggested that yet more talk -- especially more candid talk -- is a necessary step in fostering better race relations.

"We need to get honest in our dialogue about race," Grant said, proposing the formation of racially "homogeneous" groups to talk about race. People tend to censor themselves on the topic of race in racially mixed company, she said.

Grant also emphasized the personal nature of both the problem and the solution.

"Everybody needs to feel accountable to do something about race relations in this community," she said. One action she suggested: reading Uprooting Racism by Paul Kivel.

Another tactic available to every person, especially every white person, is to object to racially insensitive jokes and comments.

"If you really want to support a person of color, that's the best way to do it," said Rita Valenciano, board president of the Coalition of Hispanic Organizations.

Nothing dispels racial discomfort and suspicions more potently than getting to know someone of another race, said panelist Carson Ross, a former Missouri representative, a Republican and a black resident of overwhelmingly white Blue Springs.

Ross related how one of his white neighbors informed Ross that he had overcome his discomfort around black people. How? By living next door to the Ross family.

Police departments took the brunt of the criticism during Saturday's two-hour event. In a video produced by the Law Enforcement Task Force of Kansas City's Human Rights Commission, several black residents told of their distress at being stopped by police when they felt there was no justification.

"I'd be the last one to say racial profiling doesn't occur," said Maj. Rosilyn Allen of the Kansas City Police Department, a member of Saturday's panel. Allen said her colleagues are beginning to believe claims of racial profiling.

"Citizens are telling us what we're doing wrong, and we're listening," she said. And that, Allen said, is the first step.

Distrust keeps many black people from considering a career in the Police Department, Allen said. African-Americans constitute only 13 percent of the Kansas City police force. The department is working hard to recruit more black officers, she said.

Mark Zieman, vice president and editor of The Star and also a panelist, said that he and his staff have taken to heart the criticisms from Kansas City's minority communities. Zieman said the staff makes a point to fully integrate people of color into the paper's news coverage. Every year, he noted, The Star's diversity committee evaluates the paper's coverage of people of color.

Diversity in the pages of the paper goes hand in glove with diversity in the newsroom staff, a policy The Star has pursued for many years, Zieman said.

"Diversity for us is a good thing," he said. "We always want to do more of a good thing."

[connoisseur series500]

Race relations in America is virtually a taboo subject. Notice not many responses to your thread, Rooster.

I have no answer for you. I was born in Jamaica as a white minority. My friends were white, colored, and black. All Jamaicans are still brothers to me. I move to the States and discover a different situation. Everyone is totally uptight about race relations. Everyone is afraid to speak their mind.

I have two black next door neighbors on my street here in Toledo, and one white neighbor next to me. My street is perhaps 25-30% black as a wild guess. Obviously, I don't count. All my co-workers at the office are white (I'm in sales,) but many of my clients are black-American as well as Asian, African, Arab, European, whatever. My friends tend to be white and black-Americans but i do have some immigrant friends as well. My wife is Asian; and my brother in law is Arab. One of my closest friends is black. We talk about all kinds of things, but we share a love for chess and jazz. The two of us also share a real friendship for a couple of Ukrainian immigrants, who are having it rough right now.

I feel my life is pretty well integrated, but I don't make any special efforts towards that end. I just gravitate towards people I like; and those people come from all different cultures and colors. As an immigrant myself, I am not afraid to meet other immigrants. My neighborhood is middleclass and we all share a lot of the same values and aims. I do not hang around the hood nor am I especially interested in meeting the people there.

I simply meet the people who share similar values, whether they vote Democrat or Republican. These people come in all different colors and come from all different cultures. I believe strongly in diversity.

Could I make a greater effort to meet people of other races and cultures? You bet I could, but I don't feel especially compelled to do so. I guess I'm comfortable with myself and enjoy my friends.

Sorry, this is no answer. I don't know what the answer to your question might be.

As the Jamaicans say, "Walk good, brother."

[Rooster_Ties]

You're right Conn500, that this is a difficult topic to talk about. Maybe that's why I sat around thinking about talking about it for so long, before finally starting this thread.

I was about to discuss my own background, which isn't even half as interesting as yours, Conn500. I think you certainly bring a unique perspective to matters of race.

I grew up in a nearly lily-White suburb of St. Louis (Missouri), in what must be one of the most segregated counties in the whole country, St. Clair County, on the Illinois side of the river, right across the river from St. Louis. Yup, I grew up in the county where East St. Louis is, where Miles was born and grew up. But I grew up in and around Belleville, Illinois - which is probably 70% White now, and back then (in the 70's and 80's) was probably 85% White.

But my parents, who were born in the late 20's (and are old enough to be my grandparents), both grew up in East St. Louis when it was nearly all-White, as it was all the way through the 30's, 40's, and 50's. Lot's of reasons for the big changes in East St. Louis, which I won't go into here, except to say that now it is nearly 90% Black, and one of the most economically depressed areas in the whole country, and is quite similar to the south side of Chicago, or the Watts area of Los Angeles.

I grew up in a number of different schools, which each had about 5%-10% minority enrolment. And when I went to college, I got to interact with lots of international students, from all over the world. But, for many reasons, I don’t remember having too much interaction with the Black students who I was in college with at the time. I went to a small liberal-arts college in up-state Illinois, with about 15% minority enrolment, about half of which was Black. I do remember going to hear some lectures, now and then, that particularly appealed to the Black student community, and being at a few sort of “Black”-centric student events. But, I don’t really remember ever really getting to know any Black students during my time in college. I saw every movie Spike Lee put out, but never did figure out how to cross that divide. I wasn’t into jazz back then, though I suspect few of the Black students were either.

I’m rambling here, and have no idea where this is going. I guess I don’t have any answers either. But I think talking about race is still a good thing, and a good place to start. Back to rambling...

It wasn’t until my first year out of college, when I began working on my 2nd college degree (in music), that I got to develop a really good friendship with someone who was Black. Actually, he was a part-time professor at the college (and a full-time professor at the local community college), and he was going to be on my Honors-Project committee when I thought about doing a year-long project on Sun Ra. He had the biggest jazz collection within 300 miles in any direction, and the area he taught in was Sociology. We hit it off fast, first as mentor and student, but later just as friends. He’s 20-25 years older than I am, but we’ve really gotten to be good friends despite the age difference. He and his wife are two of the nicest people I’ve ever known in my whole life. He has kids that are only a few years younger than I am, and they’re also really nice as well - though I always feel I have way more in common with their father (who is easily old enough to be my own father), than I do any of them (he has three sons).

Conn500, you’re absolutely right about race being a taboo subject. There have been nearly 100 views of this thread, but only two people have responded to it. Difficult to talk about, but perhaps important to talk about too.

Edited May 8, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Jazzmoose]

This is definitely a touchy subject; I decided to take the day to think it over rather than post something this morning when I first read it.

There are ways to break down the socialization barriers. For me, it was turning the old prejudice cliche on it's head: my wife's sister did marry "out of race". Since the only family I have here in California is my wife and her sister's family, when I attend family get togethers, there are generally a lot more African-Americans than whites. So there's no problem with interracial interaction for me, right? Wanna buy a bridge? If it isn't the family, or people I know, the problem is still there, of course.

My childhood was in Hawaii, and the two best friends I had were Philippino and African-American. (Yeah, I'm pretty much white, although not completely.) We had no idea we were outside the American norm, although looking back, I can remember phrases from our parents that would have clued me in if I had been more aware. My mother took great pains to raise me as free of prejudice as she could. Unfortunately, what she actually accomplished was to raise me free of the recognition of race at all. This would be fantastic if the world was ready, but it was a bit strange when, after she died, I moved to Georgia to live with my grandparents.

I'm sure everyone knows on the surface what small town (population 1000) Georgia was like in 1968. The town was strictly segregated, as were the schools and churches. Growing up there was strange, but when I look back, I realize that it was a lot stranger (and sicker!) than I could see at the time. As an example: we had one black child in each grade in our otherwise all white school. I don't know how this was arranged; I'm sure there had to be some compensation for the black families involved. This was our "integration" before the county threw in the towel in 1970. Can you imagine what those children were going through? Absolutely no friends at school. No one would even talk to them. They were completely isolated and alone every day of the school year, from the time they arrived until the time they left. I don't know what happened to a lot of them; I know that the one in my grade was working as a prostitute when I left town. Just the absolute callousness of what was done to those kids still leaves me stunned.

My point? I'm not even sure. But I do know this: until a significant portion of the white majority in this country is able to sit down alone and make an honest attempt to see what this nation looks like to the average African-American, any attempt at a solution to this problem is doomed to failure.

[Rooster_Ties]

Thanks, Moose, well said. I agree that on a national scale, not much is likely to change anytime soon, no matter what anyone does. (Sad, but probably true.)

BUT, if you accept (even just a tiny bit) the mantra to "think globally, act locally" --- then I can't help but think that individuals can somhow make a real difference on a very localized level -- meaning even if they just create a tiny bit of synergy that starts to take on a tiny life of it's own - enough so that maybe a few people, or a few dozen people, or even (over time) a few hundred people start to change their perspective, even just a tiny bit.

I'm not saying that this is gonna solve all kinds of problems on a grand scale. But, perhaps I'd just like to do something, if for no other reason that the pure selfishness of wanting to improve things a tiny bit in some tiny bubble in which I have some tiny influence.

This reminds me of a similar, but different example (which will explain some of my motivation for starting this topic, and why I'm asking the questions I'm asking)...

Shortly after I moved to Kansas City in 1994, I joined a weekly round-table discussion group, a "Men's Group". We did a little bit of the typical "Men's Movement" stuff, like drumming and such, but what I really liked was just having a bunch of guys to get together with and talk about stuff. Serious stuff, stupid stuff, pop-culture stuff, pretty much anything (reminds me of a jazz bulletin board, no?? ). Then, after about a year of that, I found the group to be a little bit lacking. Everyone in the group was male (obviously), and there were many times that I found myself longing for a similar round-table discussion group that had both men and women. Later, I found something kinda like that, in the church my wife and I started going to a few years ago. The '30-somethings' group at the church was men and women, and I found that having women in the group changed a lot of the discussion, as they often brought in different points of view that an all-male group might not think of.

And so, I just realized that I feel the same thing about, well, about practically all my current social circles. That they somehow are lacking some perspectives and opinions, because everyone is White. It's just like my Men's Group, as great as it was. It was still lacking some valid perspectives and opinions, and having women around too might have diversified the pool of ideas.

( Also, the Men's Group that I was in was made up of all straight men, and as a result, I found that there were often quite a number of generalizations made about women, which were widely accepted and rarely challenged (or I was the only one challenging them). Whereas now, in the "male/female & straight/gay/lesbian" discussion group that I'm in now, it means these generalizations are rarely left unchallenged. )

So, then, the trick is, how to bring a few people of different races together?? Maybe to work together on some common 'community-action' or 'volunteer' project?? Maybe under the guise of some common interest, like a music appreciation group??? Just brainstorming some more...

Edited May 8, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Noj]

I began responding to this several times yesterday before stopping myself as I felt the crucial points were eloquently addressed in the first few posts exchanged. I have a very diverse group of friends, and it is through common activities and tastes that we have remained friends since junior high school. It has not mattered that one is black/Native American/Italian, that others are Mexican, that another is Punjabi Hindu, that another is Cuban, that still another is Argentinian...

But, I too have noticed that groups like mine are exceptions to the rule.

[Jazzmoose]

BUT, if you accept (even just a tiny bit) the mantra to "think globally, act locally" --- then I can't help but think that individuals can somhow make a real difference on a very localized level -- meaning even if they just create a tiny bit of synergy that starts to take on a tiny life of it's own - enough so that maybe a few people, or a few dozen people, or even (over time) a few hundred people start to change their perspective, even just a tiny bit.

I agree completely. This seems to me to be the only way to approach it. While I appreciate Clinton's efforts to bring this issue out from under the rug, the local approach is probably the best. After all, it's a lot harder to think "us and them" when you're both in the same room! The trick is getting people in the same room, of course.

At the risk of polarizing this discussion (and making it an "us versus them" thing in spite of my best wishes), I really feel that it is incumbent on whites to take the big steps. After all, (and you can't avoid looking at the issue of race through the lens of race, can you?), whites pushed for this exclusion for centuries; I can't help feeling we should be the ones to do the lion's share of the work in healing the wound. I wish I had done more in my life in this regard. (Of course, I thinking I'm just getting to that age where I wish I'd done more with my life period, if you know what I mean. Maybe a red sports car.... )

[Rooster_Ties]

(Thanks, Moose, for pointing out how many times I used the word "tiny" in the same paragraph!! )

I'm only 34 years old, but like you, I already know what that "wish I had done more with my life" thing is like. In some ways, faced with what will probably end up being a career change (I'm job-hunting now), I find myself in the middle of a sort of mid-life crisis, about 10 or 15 years ahead of schedule. And I find myself wanting to do more in areas like this (the topic of this thread), but struggling to figure out how.

As a white guy myself, I do feel like there's a greater need to me to reach out, or at least to look for other people (of every racial background) who also want to reach out, and reach out to them.

Just yesterday afternoon, there was an African-American gentleman going door-to-door, looking for donations for a homeless shelter. He was probably in his early 50's, maybe late 40's. He introduced himself, and I offered to shake his hand, which he did. I generally try to be nice to everybody (without being 'overly nice', if you know what I mean), but in the case of minorities - I always try doubly hard to be both nice and respectful, perhaps surprising them with my holding the door open for them, or saying thankyou to people in service industry jobs (waiters, sackers at the grocery store, the kid behind the counter at the drycleaners). It's not that I'm any 'less nice' to the white people in those same jobs, but I honestly want to try to be a good person in my interactions with others who are different than me.

[Rooster_Ties]

One other thing I've thought about doing (while I'm still job hunting), is some sort of regular volunteer work at the "American Jazz Museum", which is here in Kansas City, located at the corner of 18th & Vine, in the historic neighborhood where all the clubs were that Charlie Parker played in, and Basie, and dozens of other bands from Kansas City Jazz's hey-day. That neighborhood, back then and even now, is 95% Black, and I think 80%-95% of the employees at the museum are Black. (The "Negro Leagues Baseball Museum" is in the same complex.)

I figure that it could be an interesting experience, and would put me in the position of being the minority for a change.

( Guess this topic's gonna always be slow... )

Edited May 9, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Jazzmoose]

That's because it's a serious topic, and we're taking it seriously. The ones full of one-liners and/or sucker punches move pretty fast, but I don't think you'd want to trade, would you?

I must admit, I sure would like to see more participation here, particularly from those on the right. (No, I'm not implying what you're thinking, Johnny!)

Edited May 9, 2003 by Jazzmoose

[Rooster_Ties]

Just found these stories that ran on the News Hour with Jim Lehrer (at pbs.org), and with the more recent ones, you can listen to them (RealAudio) if you'd rather not read the whole thing online. Go to the links below to read (or in some cases, listen or watch) them...

August 17, 2001: Growing Apart - Gwen Ifill investigates the trend of increasing segregation in American schools and society.

July 11, 2000: Race in America - A discussion about a six-week New York Times series examining the role of race in the lives of everyday people.

March 2, 1998: A Nation Divided - Is America fragmenting into separate and unequal societies?

Jan. 15, 1996: Reflecting On Race - On the day remembering Martin Luther King Jr.'s birth, Charlayne Hunter-Gault talks to Benjamin DeMott. His most recent book is The Trouble with Friendship: Why Americans Can't Think Straight about Race.

Dec. 25, 1995: Open Thinking - Charlayne Hunter-Gault talks to psychiatrist James Comer of Yale University, the author of several books on race relations.

Nov. 23, 1995: Reflections On Race - A reunion of former North Florida University students who had taken a unique psychology class on race relations in the early 1970's. (This one looks particularly interesting.)

I certainly haven't had a chance to listen to all of these yet, but I'm posting them here as much for myself as anyone else, for future followup. -- Rooster T.

By The way, here is the complete list of "Race Relations - Background Reports" from the PBS News Hour web-site.

Edited May 9, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Noj]

Great links RT, thanks.

I just had a thought:

Are any of you guys "proud of your cultural heritage"? When I look back at my family tree and I imagine my ancestors in Ireland or Holland or Germany, it is sort of neat. But am I "proud"? No. I'm proud of my own acheivements, not people who lived before me and happened to be from the same part of the world. I think this sort of "pride" is thinly-disguised racism.

I've seen Latin dudes with "Brown Pride" in letterforms on their windshields. It is sort of saying "proud to not be white," defensively. Just imagine "White Pride" on a windshield...

[catesta]

I think the problem may be in not knowing how to answer the questions.

I'm putting some thoughts together, and will get back to you.

[Rooster_Ties]

Just found this article from the Kansas City Star, about (of all things) Kansas City...

Posted on Fri, Apr. 26, 2002

KC is perfect example of segregated city, Harmony Week speakers say

By KEVIN HOFFMANN

The Kansas City Star

Kansas City's mostly white suburbs and mostly black inner city epitomize the fragmentation of races that many cities in the nation face, a panel of experts on race relations said Thursday.

Hundreds attended the Harmony Week luncheon at Crown Center to listen to a panel discussion on issues such as race, class, education, urban vitality and sprawl. The luncheon served as the centerpiece in a weeklong celebration of Kansas City Harmony, an organization that works to build better relations among racial and ethnic groups and ensure equality in the workplace.

The panel consisted of John A. Powell, a civil rights law professor at the University of Minnesota; Philip Olson, director of urban affairs at the University of Missouri-Kansas City; and Janet Murguia, executive vice chancellor for university relations at the University of Kansas. All are authorities on civil rights issues.

Powell opened the discussion with a quote to remind the audience of the importance of dialogue in uniting people of different ethnic and racial backgrounds.

"If we were all the same, we wouldn't need dialogue," he said. "And if we were all different in every way, dialogue wouldn't be possible."

To show how Kansas City resembles a case study of the nation's segregated cities, Olson told the audience that in 1880, Kansas City had six voting precincts, each with a black population of at least 15 percent.

"That is a far cry from today," Olson said, pointing to the most recent census data showing that 90 percent of Kansas City's black residents live south of the Missouri River between Troost Avenue and Interstate 435.

Civic and business leaders need to find ways to break up that fragmentation, the panelists said, if Kansas City and other cities want to avoid the types of racism that still plague the country today.

Powell suggested solutions such as one tried in Maryland. There, government officials agreed that they would not allow any development in areas without existing infrastructure.

As a result, Powell said, Maryland has seen many successful redevelopment efforts in urban areas.

But education and economic opportunities ultimately play key roles in making a region such as Kansas City whole, the panelists said.

Murguia said that ethnic groups such as Hispanics tend to migrate to areas where jobs are plentiful, often low-paying jobs.

"A lot of times, tied to those low-paying jobs are lower expectations from our young people," she said. "We need to make sure we don't get our young people stuck in that track and that there is no reason they can't go onto higher education and professional jobs."

Murguia used herself as an example. She grew up in the Argentine neighborhood of Kansas City, Kan., with six siblings and a father who was a steelworker and a mother who never worked outside the home. Most of her siblings now are lawyers, and Murguia has held several jobs in the political arena, including working as a deputy assistant to former President Bill Clinton.

[BERIGAN]

That's because it's a serious topic, and we're taking it seriously. The ones full of one-liners and/or sucker punches move pretty fast, but I don't think you'd want to trade, would you?

I must admit, I sure would like to see more participation here, particularly from those on the right. (No, I'm not implying what you're thinking, Johnny!)

Jazzmoose, Rooster Ties, I did check out this topic, didn't really know if I had anything to add to it..(But when has that ever stopped me from opening my mouth!)but the situation in the ATL is different than what you are reporting, at least in some areas.(Some are still all white, others all black) I big chunk of the suburbs are racially mixed. I AM the minority here where I live . I have mentioned before that my neighborhood is something like 60-70 percent black. I have gone into the local Kroger and been the only white person in the store....I am sure some on the left would be shocked, just shocked to find this doesn't bother me, but it really doesn't. If it did, I would move. Clearly a few neighbors were bothered and left dodge though.

I also drive old Caddys and Buicks, so there is lots and lots of car talk going on between black guys(Why women rarely like old cars is as big a mystery to me as why they also rarely like jazz) and myself. If they are truly car nuts, or have a classic car, I tell them about the cruise ins around town, which still are fairly white, but you do see more blacks coming to them, which I did not see 10 years ago, for the most part.

I don't care what anyone says, there really is not much of a jazz scene in Atlanta, so can't comment on the music scene. Wish there was one, seems back in the 80's there was.... When I did go to concerts, they were of the heavy metal kind, and they truly were lily white, though I did see one black kid at one concert, once!

I also date a black girl at work a few years back, not because she was black, but because I liked her. All of her friends though were white, which does make you wonder....

so the solution for you all is to move to Atlanta! We have it all figured out....

[Jazzmoose]

Why women rarely like old cars is as big a  mystery to me as why they also rarely like jazz

Well, I can help you with the car problem, berigan. The overwhelming majority of women seem to look at cars as merely a device for transportation rather than a tangible representation of their coolness factor. Screwy dames!

By the way, I was not insinuating that those of you on the right would have a problem with other races, berigan, hence my offhand "Johnny" comment. I'd just like to hear what kind of solutions to the problem the right has to offer. You know, the conservative take on what can be done.

Edited May 10, 2003 by Jazzmoose

[Rooster_Ties]

Just wanted to take a moment and thank everyone who has replied to this thread, for keeping the tone of it in the realm of "constructive ideas for change". Since I know lots of these kinds of discussions can easily devolve into finger pointing, where each side blames the other for the causes of racial problems, I sincerely want to say "thanks" for helping to have a reasonable discussion.

And to those of you who haven't replied yet, I want to further invite you into the conversation. You don't have to have all the answers, or any of the answers for that matter. Just your observations and thoughts on the topic are more than welcome.

Thanks!!! -- Rooster T.

[J Larsen]

I have no answer for you.  I was born in Jamaica as a white minority.  My friends were white, colored, and black.  All Jamaicans are still brothers to me.  I move to the States and discover a different situation.  Everyone is totally uptight about race relations.  Everyone is afraid to speak their mind.

What part of Jamaica are you from? My girlfriend is Jamaican. We're going down to visit her parents in a couple weeks. (They come up here all the time, in fact they had a house on Long Island that they just sold last week.)

I've only lived in "white" neighborhoods twice in my life, and one of those was the Upper West Side which I guess really doesn't qualify as white, but it's about as close as you come in Manhattan. It was only the second time I had lived in a building where the majority of tenants were white. (Given that my last name is Larsen, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm Caucasian.) I don't know, having grown up almost exclusively around black and Asian people, I 've never really been able to relate to the "mainstream white" discourse on race relations. For me it's never been a big deal. Until I left the city I grew up in for the first time, which wasn't until I was 11 or 12, I didn't really realize that whites were a majority. I've always been myself to everyone, and I've always assumed that people around me were doing the same. Of course, I understand that severe racial inequities exist in our society, so that this is a crucial topic by necessity. I'm only speaking on a very personal level here.

Edited May 11, 2003 by J Larsen

[connoisseur series500]

What part of Jamaica are you from? My girlfriend is Jamaican. We're going down to visit her parents in a couple weeks. (They come up here all the time, in fact they had a house on Long Island that they just sold last week.)

Clarendon Parrish. Born in Mandeville, which is a rather pleasant hilly town; but that was only because it was the nearest hospital to where I lived. Grew up in "the bush." Small place near May Pen.

[Jazzmoose]

Great links RT, thanks.

I just had a thought:

Are any of you guys "proud of your cultural heritage"? When I look back at my family tree and I imagine my ancestors in Ireland or Holland or Germany, it is sort of neat. But am I "proud"? No. I'm proud of my own acheivements, not people who lived before me and happened to be from the same part of the world. I think this sort of "pride" is thinly-disguised racism.

I've seen Latin dudes with "Brown Pride" in letterforms on their windshields. It is sort of saying "proud to not be white," defensively. Just imagine "White Pride" on a windshield...

Noj, if I'm reading your post right, here's an answer. (If not, it won't make the least bit of sense, but oh well! )

What you have to keep in mind when dealing with issues of "cultural pride" is that the culture of the United States routinely downplays the contributions of nonwhite cultures. There is no need to celebrate the cultural heritage of those of us who come from white European stock; it's already done by the society as a whole. On the other hand, African-Americans, Hispanics (whatever that term means!) and Asian-Americans see their contributions to society routinely ignored by the press, history books, etc. The celebration of their cultural heritage is their way of saying "hey, I count too!"

When living in a racist society, it simply isn't fair to expect a minority to react to the situation in the same way as the majority.

[J Larsen]

Born in Mandeville, which is a rather pleasant hilly town; but that was only because it was the nearest hospital to where I lived.

Her parents live in Mandeville.

[Noj]

Great links RT, thanks.

I just had a thought:

Are any of you guys "proud of your cultural heritage"?  When I look back at my family tree and I imagine my ancestors in Ireland or Holland or Germany, it is sort of neat.  But am I "proud"?  No.  I'm proud of my own acheivements, not people who lived before me and happened to be from the same part of the world.  I think this sort of "pride" is thinly-disguised racism. 

I've seen Latin dudes with "Brown Pride" in letterforms on their windshields.  It is sort of saying "proud to not be white," defensively.  Just imagine "White Pride" on a windshield...

Noj, if I'm reading your post right, here's an answer. (If not, it won't make the least bit of sense, but oh well! )

What you have to keep in mind when dealing with issues of "cultural pride" is that the culture of the United States routinely downplays the contributions of nonwhite cultures. There is no need to celebrate the cultural heritage of those of us who come from white European stock; it's already done by the society as a whole. On the other hand, African-Americans, Hispanics (whatever that term means!) and Asian-Americans see their contributions to society routinely ignored by the press, history books, etc. The celebration of their cultural heritage is their way of saying "hey, I count too!"

When living in a racist society, it simply isn't fair to expect a minority to react to the situation in the same way as the majority.

I can see the motivation. That's what I meant by "defensively." It is a reaction. I still see it as an obstacle to unity.

[Rooster_Ties]

I can see the motivation.  That's what I meant by "defensively."  It is a reaction.  I still see it as an obstacle to unity.

I think some of it depends on how other people choose to interpret "pride in one's cultural background" when they see it, and to some degree it also depends on how that pride is expressed (certainly).

My father-in-law is about 75% Swedish, and my wife is probably 40% to 50% Swedish too (can't remember the exact percentages of my mother-in-law's background, but she's a little bit Swedish too, maybe as much as 25%??)

My father-in-law in particular, has quite a bit of pride in his cultural background, with a few "dala horses" around the house...

My parents are both mostly German, and they have a fair amount of pride in their background too. (Of course they are 200% American when it comes to discussions about WWII, and take no pride in that part in German history.) I was adopted, so I have no idea what my exact "bio-cultural" background is, other than I know I'm a typical Euro-mutt of some sort. I take some pride in my parent's German heritage, but probably not any more than I take some pride in my wife's Swedish heritage.

I guess I mean to say that I've seen all kinds of various 'while' European-Americans taking pride in their cultural backgrounds, in ways that don't necessarily say "We're better than everyone else".

I think some of it depends on the kind of 'filter' people look at these cultural expressions through. I can choose to be 'put-off' by the notion of "Black Power", or I can choose to recognise that there are probably some logical reasons for how and why the notion of "Black Power" came to be an expression used in this country, both politically, culturally.

Edited May 12, 2003 by Rooster_Ties