'Fess up you buccaneers...

[Hardbopjazz]

How many bootlegs(pirate) cd's do you have in your collection?

Now, would stuff that has never seen the light of day in CD format which you convert to CDR's be considered bootlegs?

I have a total of 22 boots. I'm not including the albums that have never made it to CD's. I am including albums which I have converted but never went out and got the CD's for.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Hardbopjazz

[Brad]

If you consider lp recorded onto cds bottlegs, then I have less than 5, othewise 0. I'm pretty scrupulous about that.

[chris olivarez]

I have three all Danny Gatton recorded live at the Birchmere. When I saw that info that said Danny Gatton w/Buddy Emmons and horn section I temporarily lost all sense of right or wrong. They're nice but they came with a guilt surcharge. I told myself never again and so far I've stuck to that.

[Jazzmoose]

I'm unclear on the terminology here. I have two CDRs of OOP albums (that will be replaced when, for one, and if for the other, they are released) and one CDR of commercially unavailble stuff. Plus two OOP Mosaics on CDR. And a tape of part of another. I blame the bad crowd I fell in with, this gang of jazzheads at Organissimo; they all came from those posters...

[Dan Gould]

I think bootlegs are properly understood to be commercial releases of material the issuer has no legal right to issue. This could be stretched to include burns of in print music.

But if you trade private recordings with no cash being exchanged, there's no "bootlegging" going on. Its also difficult to call CDRs of never-reissued LPs "bootlegs" provided that no cash exchanges hands and it is understood that a legitimate release, should one appear, should be purchased.

That being said, I have some Trip LPs that appear to be of dubious legality, also on the "Magnetic" label is a Kenny Dorham appearance at the Halfnote in 1966. The recording is obviously taken from a radio broadcast and I seriously doubt that the company had any legal right to put out the tapes. On the other hand, since it was purchased used, I did not directly support the company.

[Aggie87]

I've got only a few as well:

***snipped my list***

And I'm with JazzMoose on this point - I'll replace any of these if officially released versions ever see the light. Parallel Realities has been released on video, so I'm kinda on the edge about that one already.

edit - I don't really mind sharing with y'all, but I don't know who else reads this board, and don't really care to broadcast to the whole world which bootlegs may or may not be in my collection.

Edited June 16, 2004 by Aggie87

[jazzbo]

Guilty.

Doing penance. . . for quite some time.

[Hardbopjazz]

Maybe someone can answer this. Someone has offered my an Art Blakey Bootleg From 11/23/55 Cafe Bohemia. The same date as the one issued on Blue Note. He insists that this bootleg is from the late set that night and none of these were ever issued. Does someone have Blue Note's discography handy and could check if these in fact were recorded but unissued? Below is the set list.

Art Blakey - 11/23/55 - Cafe Bohemia - New York, NY

1. Soft Winds

2. The Theme

3. Minor's Holiday

4. Alone Together

5. Avila and Tequila

6. What's New

7. Sportin' Crowd

8. Like Someone in Love

9. Art Blakey thanking the Audience

[brownie]

Stay away from that one and get the RVG Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers at Cafe Bohemia, vol. 1 and 2. All the tracks are included in those two CDs.

The only rejected sides from the club date are:

- Blues

- Dedciphering the Message

- Prince Albert

Now if you can get those three tunes, get them! And I'll take a copy myself B)

[Hardbopjazz]

Stay away from that one and get the RVG Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers at Cafe Bohemia, vol. 1 and 2. All the tracks are included in those two CDs.

The only rejected sides from the club date are:

- Blues

- Dedciphering the Message

- Prince Albert

Now if you can get those three tunes, get them! And I'll take a copy myself B)

Yeah, I already have the RVG and the original release, but this guy is claiming it is the unissued tracks from that show. I don't happen to have the BN discography in front of me to check. If they are the rejects or the unissued numbers, I like to check it out.

[doubleM]

Well, I have 2 of those tracks: Prince Albert and Decifering the Message. It says that Prince Albert appears on the original LP config., but not D'ing the M. I could help you w/ those, Brownie...if you want 'em.

[Saxophone__Vagina]

What is everyone's view on music piracy here? Don't think i have seen it discussed anywhere on this board.

[RDK]

Well, I've never bought a bootleg... -_-

[RDK]

What is everyone's view on music piracy here? Don't think i have seen it discussed anywhere on this board.

"Piracy," by strict definition, is an absolute no-no.

I'm curious what people think about having, listening to, or trading live radio broadcasts...

[Hardbopjazz]

What is everyone's view on music piracy here? Don't think i have seen it discussed anywhere on this board.

"Piracy," by strict definition, is an absolute no-no.

I'm curious what people think about having, listening to, or trading live radio broadcasts...

If it never is going to be released on CD or whatever the format of the day is, I can't see it being an issue.

[Dan Gould]

What is everyone's view on music piracy here? Don't think i have seen it discussed anywhere on this board.

"Piracy," by strict definition, is an absolute no-no.

I'm curious what people think about having, listening to, or trading live radio broadcasts...

Ray,

What would possibly be an objection to having, listening to, or trading live radio broadcasts? Only if money is changing hands should there be an ethical objection.

In fact, I am currently working on transferring reel-to-reel tapes for a fellow board member, and there are some quite remarkable things he captured off the air years and years ago ...

and no, you can't have them!

[BeBop]

I supose I'm both guilty and innocent (which makes me guilty, right?)

I don't have any CD-Rs or cassettes of anything, except LPs I own.

I have, however, made a dozen of so CD-Rs of OOP LPs for friends. I gave up that practice a year or so ago.

[Dan Gould]

I supose I'm both guilty and innocent (which makes me guilty, right?)

I don't have any CD-Rs or cassettes of anything, except LPs I own.

I have, however, made a dozen of so CD-Rs of OOP LPs for friends. I gave up that practice a year or so ago.

Not much of a friend ....

Seriously, why did you give it up? Guilt keeping you up nights?

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din.

[RDK]

What would possibly be an objection to having, listening to, or trading live radio broadcasts? Only if money is changing hands should there be an ethical objection.

Oh, I don't have any objection. But one could (and some do, with legitimacy) make the claim that the artist didn't intend for their music to be recorded in such a way and that the artist isn't profiting from it in any case.

For example, didn't some of the "bootleg" Mingus albums/CDs that Sue is always trying to stifle originally come from European radio broadcasts?

For that matter, is there really that much of a difference between taping a live jazz concert off the radio or covertly in a club? Many think the first one is okay, but would call the second one a bootleg. (In neither case am I referring to selling the recordings; just recordings made for personal use and/or trading.)

It's not my intention to cast any stones - I too have "tapes" - but I find the moral/ethical arguments both for and against such things very interesting.

[Dan Gould]

What would possibly be an objection to having, listening to, or trading live radio broadcasts?  Only if money is changing hands should there be an ethical objection.

Oh, I don't have any objection. But one could (and some do, with legitimacy) make the claim that the artist didn't intend for their music to be recorded in such a way and that the artist isn't profiting from it in any case.

For example, didn't some of the "bootleg" Mingus albums/CDs that Sue is always trying to stifle originally come from European radio broadcasts?

For that matter, is there really that much of a difference between taping a live jazz concert off the radio or covertly in a club? Many think the first one is okay, but would call the second one a bootleg. (In neither case am I referring to selling the recordings; just recordings made for personal use and/or trading.)

It's not my intention to cast any stones - I too have "tapes" - but I find the moral/ethical arguments both for and against such things very interesting.

Well, Ray, my rule of thumb is that generally, if the set was broadcast, the musicians knew about it, at minimum, and maybe got paid extra for it? The only way that objection works is if the broadcast was surrepticious.

That, and actually putting out tapes for commercial sale, which is what Sue Mingus is trying to stop, I presume. That's a separate commercial use of an artist's work, and I understand the objection.

But taping and trading among collectors-there ain't no way that there is an ethical objection to that.

[BeBop]

I supose I'm both guilty and innocent (which makes me guilty, right?)

I don't have any CD-Rs or cassettes of anything, except LPs I own.

I have, however, made a dozen of so CD-Rs of OOP LPs for friends.  I gave up that practice a year or so ago.

Not much of a friend ....

Seriously, why did you give it up? Guilt keeping you up nights?

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din.

I won't claim any moral high ground here, though I suppose my fanatically etihical side played a minor role. The bigger contributor is that life has gone utterly apesh*t; I've lost control. Music has taken on a much smaller role, at least in its physical forms (CD, LP, concert). Besides, I haven't seen any of my LPs in about a year.

[Shawn]

CDR's of OOP or never released on CD: These shouldn't make ANYONE feel guilty. After all, there aren't any available new to purchase (so the artist isn't making any money off it) and you're getting a copy from somebody that DID buy the thing at some point.

Plus - There's no difference between buying a used CD and getting a friend to make you a CDR copy. Nobody but the used CD store makes any money from that sale.

Radio broadcasts? - The artists are getting paid for the broadcast (well, they should be anyway)...if they are sending the music out into the universe...of course people are going to record it...that will never change...and it shouldn't. Unless they figure out a way to copy-protect broadcast!

[Aggie87]

Plus - There's no difference between buying a used CD and getting a friend to make you a CDR copy.  Nobody but the used CD store makes any money from that sale.

To me there is a difference. I'd rather buy a used copy. The artist, record company, producers, etc., made their money off of this copy on its original sale. The ownership of that copy is transferred from the 1st buyer to the used store, then to the 2nd buyer - similar to a buying a used car. But all involved in the creative process received what they were due on the original sale of the CD.

For used CDs, the original buyer recoups some of his purchase price, the used store makes a couple of bucks upon re-sale, and the 2nd buyer gets a legitimately released product that all royalties have been paid upon.

On the other hand, with a CDR, you are effectively cloning the music and bringing a new copy into existence, one that doesn't allow the artist/record company/producer/engineer/etc to receive their due income.

If the material is OOP, then yes the artist doesn't "lose" the sale of a new copy, but it may dilute sales of any future re-releases, to the point where things might not be re-released, at least as frequently. This could become a downward spiral, to the point where the only reissues end up being Kind of Blue and Time Out...

Edited June 17, 2004 by Aggie87

[couw]

sales of KoB and Time Out don't seem to be diluted by the release being the umpteenth version of music we already have.

[Aggie87]

That's part of my point - they sell to new jazz fans, or people who just want to dip their toes in the jazz pool, but not get into the deep end.

For people who want more than that (like pretty much all of us on this board), if we want reissues of less common jazz titles (like Demon's Dance or the one Scofield leader date I'm still looking for, Bar Talk), I would think it behooves us not to float CDR copies all over.

You could possibly make a case that CDR copies of OOP items won't hurt future sales, but it hinges on the certainty that everyone with a CDR copy will purchase a legit copy upon its release. No sure thing for the general population. Maybe for the die hards.

And if you take control of the music away from the people who produce it, and who's livelihood depends on it, you increase the probability that they'll stop producing it.

I'm not necessarily an advocate either way, just kind of thinking out loud right now...