Wayne on KELLEY GREAT

[JSngry]

Didn't know until just a few days ago that this was Wayne's first record date.

You'd think that he'd have at least tried to show a LITTLE caution!

[jazzbo]

Yeah, this has long been a favorit. . . Quite a nice little session!

[bertrand]

Apparently, it's not his first record date.

I started a thread elsewhere (too lazy to do a search righty now) that Wayne apparently recorded with a pianist named John Eaton for Columbia in the mid-50s, a session that has yet to be issued.

At first, I thought it was the John Eaton who lives in DC and does these kind of general public history of jazz type concert/lectures, but that guy didn't start recording until the early seventies. I talked to Dan Morgenstern at IJS two weeks ago, and he remembered hearing about this session, and also confirmed that it was not that John Eaton. A search in the Lord shows that there was a John Eaton, pianist, recording for Columbia back then, but of course Lord does not list the session with Wayne (this would involve doing actual research as opposed to pilfering the info from other sources as Lord is reputed to do).

Dan suggested contacting George Avakian, which is what I plan to do as soon as I get up the nerve to disturb this giant with my trivial query.

Bertrand.

[Shawn]

To me it's always sounded like he was playing in a completely different dimension than the rest of the band on this date....the space time continuim was out of sync or something!!!

[DrJ]

Wow, interesting stuff - also wasn't aware KELLY GREAT was his first "confirmed" recording session (missed that somehow) and definitely wasn't aware that there appears to have been another earlier one awaiting firm confirmation...hopefully Avakian will respond with some info (and plans for a reissue!).

[Joe]

Bertrand -- this same John Eaton is now a semi-well-known contemporary composer. He was also one of the first musicians to experiment with analog synthesizers; I believe he dubbed his own (pre-Moog) invention the Syn-Ket.

As a jazz pianist, he billed himself as "Johnny Eaton". IIRC.

Edited June 9, 2004 by Joe

[Jim R]

A search in the Lord shows that there was a John Eaton, pianist, recording for Columbia back then...

This is not a recommendation, BTW. I had his other Columbia LP COLLEGE JAZZ: MODERN. Very... forgettable.

[Pete C]

The tapes of the Eaton session do exist according to my source at Sony.

Edited June 9, 2004 by Pete C

[JSngry]

To me it's always sounded like he was playing in a completely different dimension than the rest of the band on this date....the space time continuim was out of sync or something!!!

There's times he sounds like Johnny Griffin on helium. Especially on "June Night".

I mean, he sounds totally "out there" even today, even by his standards. Imagine how this must have sounded to audiences when it was first released! "Wierd as Wayne" indeed!

It would be nice to hear that Eaton date.

My point is that it seems that "tradition" in those days was for a player to try to "make a good impression" on their first record date (and ok, this isn't his first, but Wynton Kelley is a bit different that Johnny Eaaton...). Wayne apparently decided to just come bulldozing out of left field.

This has to rank as one of rhe mosr gloriously audacious "official" recording debuts in the annals of jazz!

[couw]

This has to rank as one of rhe mosr gloriously audacious "official" recording debuts in the annals of jazz!

strange then that it doesn't seem to register with people like that.

I never realised this was his debut either....

[JSngry]

This has to rank as one of rhe mosr gloriously audacious "official" recording debuts in the annals of jazz!

strange then that it doesn't seem to register with people like that.

I never realised this was his debut either....

Well, most of us had heard a lot of Wayne before hearing this album. I know I ceertainly had - years of the BNS, the Plugged Nickel stuff, etc. I first got KELLEY GREAT on a VeeJay CD about 5 or 6 years ago, and thought that Wayne was off into a little different zone, but just figured it was Wayne being Wayne, if you know what I mean. Wayne goes there.

Then I read in the Mosaic Morgan/Shorter book that this was his first date (no mention is made of the Eaton date), go back and check it out again, and WHOA! Realizing that this was his "debut" throws the "wierdness" into an entirely new light.

It's difficult, if not impossible, to truly hear things now as they sounded then, especially if it's the work of somebody you're been as totally innundated with as I have been with Shorter. But a little "imagination", and familiarity with the "surrounding landscape" of the times can work wonders, up to a point. I don't know what kind of play this album got back in the day, but it was certainly out of my radar's range until less than 10 years ago (and not all VeeJays were, fwiw, not by any stretch of the imagination). I suspect that my unawareness of this album, and its status as Wayne's debut is not unusual.

Totally audacious, I say!

Edited June 9, 2004 by JSngry

[couw]

totally audacious but not a big success?

it would indeed be really interesting to know about the impact of this one when it was first released.

[JSngry]

As well as how popular those VeeJay sides were overall in their time.

(time for another thread...)

[Chuck Nessa]

totally audacious but not a big success?

it would indeed be really interesting to know about the impact of this one when it was first released.

I can tell you about my reactions at the time (and my friends). We thought Wayne was a MOTHER and were disappointed by the first couple of BN records under his name. We felt he'd "lost focus".

I'm sure Vee Jay sold a (relative) bunch of this lp 'cause I saw it much more often (in private collections) than other Vee Jay jazz sides.

[Pete C]

We thought Wayne was a MOTHER and were disappointed by the first couple of BN records under his name. We felt he'd "lost focus".

That seems to have been the case with Baraka (see his postscript to his Shorter piece in Black Music). I can't say I agree.

[Shawn]

Well I just pulled this session back out and gave it another spin. Funny, I had never really paid close attention to what Wayne was doing on this date...but he's going for it! Kind of like "fuck'n hell, you're GONNA pay attention to me on this date...cause I ain't gettin' paid shit!".

Good stuff indeed. I also see what Jim was talking about with the "Johnny Griffin on helium" thing...

[JSngry]

The tapes of the Eaton session do exist according to my source at Sony.

Just received similar confirmation.

[doubleM]

Has anyone noticed the funky intonation (or tape) on this session? It seems awfully sharp to me.

[Larry Kart]

Chuck's account of how that music was received back then was the way it was -- also the puzzlement at the early Blue Note Shorter and the wondering about where the VeeJay seriocomic master of space, time, and dimension had gone to. Here's something I wrote about the VeeJay Wayne from the intro to ye olde book:

"A good example of Shorter’s early, fruitfully disruptive approach to improvisation is the solo he took on 'June Night' from the album Kelly Great, made in 1960 under the leadership of pianist Wynton Kelly. The tune is a lightweight pop ditty, and it’s performed by the group with a coy, two-beat stroll. But as Shorter slides into his solo with a vast languid swoon, his listeners suddenly find themselves in a surrealistic fun house, dropping through unexpected trap doors and on the receiving end of some ghostly musical shocks. At one point, for instance, Shorter rises to a pitch of apparently genuine ecstasy, spitting out a rapid-fire figure like a man who has been plugged into a light socket. A moment later, though, Shorter repeats this phrase with the delicately miniaturized grace of a music box, as though he were letting us know that the appearance of soloistic ecstasy may be just that--not a take-it-to-the-bank emotional fact but a cool, even cold-blooded, act of the will that then can be toyed with or even mocked."

[mikeweil]

We better ask who of us was aware that it was his first "official" record date - I wasn't either.

But it gets even better: His next studio session was part of his first VeeJay "Blues à la carte", only then did he record with Blakey, and that stayed unreleased at the time - "Africaine". The first released Blakey stuff was the Champs-Elysées session on Fontana. Figure that. Then came the Blue Note sessions for "The Big Beat". He was recording as a leader right from the start, along with his sideman dates for Blakey and, later, Miles.

There were some private live recordings with Coltrane and Blakey at the time of "Kelly Great" I would really like to hear, then ....

Edited June 10, 2004 by mikeweil

[MartyJazz]

As a result of this thread, I took out the LP form the "archives" this AM and enjoyed it thoroughly with my breakfast. Wayne was indeed sounding quite playful ("June Night") and unique (particularly enjoyed his original "Mama "G""). Thanks for turning me on to a side that's been languishing on the shelf too long a time.

[JSngry]

We better ask who of us was aware that it was his first "official" record date...

Surely I'm not the only one here who buys Mosaic sets AND reads their liner notes, am I?

[DrJ]

This is a really interesting thread, particularly hearing about the reactions to Wayne "back in the day" from Chuck and Larry.

Can't say I agree from a much later vantage point though about his first couple BNs, while the Vee Jay material is really outstanding, NIGHT DREAMER in particular has always been one of my favorite slices of Shorter.

[JSngry]

I've always found NIGHT DREAMER to be a bit "timid", as they say, but I've always chalked it up to "first-timers syndrome". I feel the same way about PAGE ONE too. But from JUJU on...

Then again, I did not have the experience of hearing all this stuff unfold in "real time", and that's something that plays into different perceptions in a way that I'm just now coming to appreciate. Hell, I first heard Wayne on INDESTUCTABLE, BITCHES BREW, and the first Weather Report album, all in the space of about 3-6 months. By the time I got to live in a locale where non-cutout BN sides were easily available, I'd already heard him in too many contexts and time zones to really think about the linear evolution. It all sounded like Wayne to me, some in different "shades" than others, but all Wayne nevertheless.

It's only with the passage of time, the finding of myself in a position of having heard enough stuff new and experiencing the reactions to it by a new generation (or two) that I am beginning to appreciate how something that I've always dug (or not) might strike somebody older and more experienced (or younger and less) completely different. The music stays the same, but how people hear it and feel it may not.

Life, what a trip!

Edited June 11, 2004 by JSngry

[DrJ]

Funny, I would agree with you Jim about PAGE ONE, I've never quite understood why everyone goes so ga ga over that one when OUR THING and even moreso IN 'N' OUT and INNER URGE followed and had so much more on display of Henderson's artistry.

But with NIGHT DREAMER, I wouldn't call it tentative or timid, just more quiet, maybe even subdued, but in a very appealing way. Oh well, to each their own, and I do get what you're saying for sure.