over-rated trumpet players

[couw]

Plenty of players that others like/love that I just don't "get", but I hesitate to call them "overrated" simply because I recognize their validity and respect their professional integrety and stuff like that.

me again, you already hint at it, but I'll make it more explicit than that. I think it should be possible to somehow pin this kind of stuff down anyhow. To give this concept of "overrated" another context than that of personal likes and dislikes. Howsabout viewing it from a historical perspective or from the - only slightly different - perspective of impact on the music. Are there players that are mentioned time and again in overviews, who to some extent might as well be left out? Players whose management was damn good at pushing the name and who then were not able to fill the big shoes they had been hyped up to fill. Professional integrity is all fine and dandy, but being convinced of yourself isn't going to convince others. It may also end in onanist noodling. And of course the crap has its value in defining the non-crap, but I doubt anyone will start a crusade for the myriads of b3 players that always get mention in the liner notes to indicate that the particular player in question is NOT one of those. (okay, maybe I will start it one day, but I'm only marginal here.)

I think it is true that in the end it all comes down to personal taste, but like we discussed on the Jackie Mac thread, I also think that it is possible to leave the personal taste for what it is a bit and talk about the facts without the colour of taste feghing it up completely. From that perspective, I think this is an interesting discussion. If only Eric would now care to explain his stance on KD being overrated...

[sal]

Terrell Stafford - I just cannot warm up to his playing

I can understand possibly not liking his album, but have you ever seen this guy live?? He's easily one of the best around right now. I've not been seeing live jazz for as long as many on this board, but I can tell you that I've seen many, many trumpet players from Wynton and Clark Terry to Jeremy Pelt and Maurice Brown. Stafford gave probably the best trumpet performance I've ever seen.

[sal]

Now, you want a real over-rated trumpet player?? Try listening to Corey Wilkes for more than two songs. The guy plays the same licks and pulls from the same bag of tricks EVERY time he steps up to the mic. The very first time you hear him, it sounds cool, but try seeing him play more than once. Why he was chosen to play with the Art Ensemble is something I will never understand. Lester must be rolling over in his grave.

Edited June 4, 2004 by sal

[JSngry]

Al Hirt!

(Seriously, I've heard what are supposed to be his "good" sides, the early, "pure" ones, and, uh... no.)

[robviti]

Overrate \O`ver*rate"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Overrated; p. pr.

& vb. n. Overrating.]

To rate or value too highly.

Using this definition, I nominate Dave Douglas. I like some of his music and have enjoyed his live performances, but the adulation that many heap on him is, um...over-rated.

[Eric]

Plenty of players that others like/love that I just don't "get", but I hesitate to call them "overrated" simply because I recognize their validity and respect their professional integrety and stuff like that.

Clearly that is where I am coming from with KD, Booker Little and Terrell Stafford. I have a musician/guitarist friend here in KC who loves KD. I have a bunch of his stuff and like his records, but he does not really move me. For me, I think, I don't hear as much of a brassy "bite" or fullness of sound. For both Booker and KD, I hear most of a "pinched" sound that just isn't as much to my liking.

[John L]

On threads like this, there is always some confusion over how people interpret the term "overrated." The fact is, it is perfectly logical to think trumpeter A is overrated, trumpeter B is underrated, and yet still think that tumpeter A is the superior trumpet player.

As for me, I have never really been able to get Chet Baker. I don't hate him, but just can't understand what the big deal is.

[robviti]

On threads like this, there is always some confusion over how people interpret the term "overrated."

that's why i included a definition in my post. very often, threads like this one offer posters an opportunity to say "i don't like that guy." their opinions are perfectly valid, of course, but i think they miss the point of the thread.

[tooter]

Horn players can have a sound that is not so attractive/forceful/individual/musical even (etc) and yet still manage to play rivetting jazz. 

Name one.

Especially one who lacks the "individual" aspect.

Jim - Yes.... not so easy! But the "/" are "and/or's" so I fall back on the "or".

Okay, in for a pound. Lee Konitz. (This thread is about trumpet players I know but I can't think of a good example just now and I think you said "horn players" earlier.) His tone has never appealed to me and by his own admission (or boast?), he plays "sharp" - that is to say, at a higher pitch than would be "correct". But I still like his playing very much because of his skill and art as an improvisor.

I might have said Benny Golson at one time because I was not keen on his sound for a while when I first heard him but then it grew on me and I came to realise what he does with the changes of tone, the shadings. Harold Land is another who it took me a while to get used to but now I have gone the other way. But then his sound changed quite markedly at one stage in his career I think.

I'll give it some thought but I might have to admit the "individual" was a mistake.

This boils down to a matter of personal preference in the end - "one man's meat...."

[mikeweil]

re:Wynton. I'm not a convert, but his recent playing at the Ornette Coleman tribute at Merkin Hall was very good.

I think if he adhered more to the New Orleans music he'd be express himself to the fullest.

Very interesting thought! I think I can agree, 'cause that's the music he plays with all his heart and spirit, and playing modern he is more the intellectual type.

I find Freddie Hubbard somewhat overrated, playing superficial stuff at times and too self-indulgent.

Randy Brecker. Very good studio man, but not very original as a soloist.

I think Booker Little is not overrated - he was still very young when he passed, and who knows what wisdom would have made out of his great tone?

Kenny Dorham - couldn't disagree more - probably not to everyone's taste, but one of the greatest.

Agree on Sandoval - too much flash.

[tooter]

re:Wynton. I'm not a convert, but his recent playing at the Ornette Coleman tribute at Merkin Hall was very good.

I think if he adhered more to the New Orleans music he'd be express himself to the fullest.

Very interesting thought! I think I can agree, 'cause that's the music he plays with all his heart and spirit, and playing modern he is more the intellectual type.

I find Freddie Hubbard somewhat overrated, playing superficial stuff at times and too self-indulgent.

Randy Brecker. Very good studio man, but not very original as a soloist.

I think Booker Little is not overrated - he was still very young when he passed, and who knows what wisdom would have made out of his great tone?

Kenny Dorham - couldn't disagree more - probably not to everyone's taste, but one of the greatest.

Agree on Sandoval - too much flash.

Mike - glad you said that about Freddie Hubbard - I agree. I also agree wholeheartedly about Booker Little. The album of the same name, with Tommy Flanagan, is near the top of my desert island disks. He had a technique that was incredible and he used it to the full which is sometimes a path to pyrotechnics for their own sake but not in his case. He stuck to the straight and narrow on that album at least.

[Brandon Burke]

Kenny Dorham - gasp - something is lacking for me

Booker Little - ditto, the sort of "running" playing doesn't do it for me

Wow! Two of my all time favorites. I expect better from a fellow Jayhawk!

[Eric]

Kenny Dorham - gasp - something is lacking for me

Booker Little - ditto, the sort of "running" playing doesn't do it for me

Wow! Two of my all time favorites. I expect better from a fellow Jayhawk!

Well ... being a Free Stater ... I can keep an open mind. I own a bunch by both guys ... where do you recommend I initiate the renaissance?

[doubleM]

Agree w/ ya', Brandon. The very qualitites that are mentioned as unappealing in KD and Booker Little... IMHO, give them accessibility and emotion in their playing. Not the "brassiest" sounding players, but there was much more going on.

Edited June 4, 2004 by doubleM

[John L]

Tooter: Lee Konitz not individual??? I would go back to the drawing board if I were you.

Maybe Benny Golson is a better example as a bit more generic a horn player. But if I could compose like Benny Golson, I really wouldn't given a damn.

Edited June 4, 2004 by John L

[couw]

Tooter: Lee Konitz not individual??? I would go back to the drawing board if I were you.

your place would be in primary school learning to read again then

tooter explicitly pointed out he was on about the "or" part of his "and/or" dashing, so probably you should read "not so attractive" instead of "not so individual," moreso as he went on to praise Konitz as an improvisor.

ah, reading....

[MartyJazz]

You're nuts, Tooter.

I mean, I can understand listing Wynton, but Clark Terry????

The man is probably one of the very most easily recognizable trumpeters in the world-you can identify his sound in about three notes, and its not cause he never has anything to say!

I once had the inexplicable and unforgivable nerve to put down Clark Terry (I have since re-evaluated my assessment in a much more positive direction) to Taft Jordan when I met the latter at the West End Cafe in NYC some 30 years ago. Mr. Jordan justifiably took me to task, stating "Clark Terry is terrrrrrrible" (meaning, of course that he's great). Don't know how and why I had the temerity to do it but chiefly regret that I was so wrong at that time. I guess, if you're not stupid at least some of the time, you haven't really experienced anything.

Edited June 4, 2004 by MartyJazz

[Brownian Motion]

Donald Byrd is my nominee for the most over-recorded trumpet player of all time; he never missed a date and could always be depended on to play three notes when one would suffice.

[mmilovan]

You're nuts, Tooter.

I mean, I can understand listing Wynton, but Clark Terry????

The man is probably one of the very most easily recognizable trumpeters in the world-you can identify his sound in about three notes, and its not cause he never has anything to say!

I once had the inexplicable and unforgivable nerve to put down Clark Terry (I have since re-evaluated my assessment in a much more positive direction) to Taft Jordan when I met the latter at the West End Cafe in NYC some 30 years ago. Mr. Jordan justifiably took me to task, stating "Clark Terry is terrrrrrrible" (meaning, of course that he's great). Don't know how and why I had the temerity to do it but chiefly regret that I was so wrong at that time. I guess, if you're not stupid at least some of the time, you haven't really experienced anything.

Was it the same Taft Jordan that played with Chick Webb big band... Whoa...

[Pete C]

As for me, I have never really been able to get Chet Baker. I don't hate him, but just can't understand what the big deal is.

John, how familiar are you with the later stuff? Check out Strollin' and get back to me.

A lot of great players have been named on this thread.

[Pete C]

For both Booker and KD, I hear most of a "pinched" sound that just isn't as much to my liking.

Dorham and Little were extremely different players. I respect, but don't love Dorham's playing. I find Little to be one of the most expressive of players, and in a weird way I hear a Sephardic tinge to his playing. Little would be way at the top of an underrated composers list.

[Pete C]

I've got (borrowed) Tom Harrell's big band album [Time's Mirror] at the moment. There is a good review at AMG and yet I found it uninspired mostly, not to say insipid, somehow.

I like Harrell's playing, but I too find that album a crashing bore.

I've seen Stafford live about 3 times over about 10 years. I think he's one of the top straight-ahead trumpeters of his generation. I prefer him to both Marsalis & Hargrove. I nominate Hargrove for overrated. I nominate Payton for deserving of his acclaim.

[John L]

As for me, I have never really been able to get Chet Baker.  I don't hate him, but just can't understand what the big deal is.

John, how familiar are you with the later stuff? Check out Strollin' and get back to me.

A lot of great players have been named on this thread.

Pete: Admittedly, I have heard very little of his later work, including Strollin'. So I will indeed need to get back to you.

[MartyJazz]

Was it the same Taft Jordan that played with Chick Webb big band... Whoa...

[chris olivarez]

Have to disagree with Sandoval but only up to a point. I liked the stuff on Messidor but the rest of his output has left me anywhere from unimpressed to this sucks(for the most part).

As for Harrell I liked what he did with Phil Woods and I liked his cd "Paradise" but the rest of what I heard from him really hasn't done much for me.

Jury is still out for me in regards to Kenny Dorham.