over-rated trumpet players

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Maybe some of you who are more musically charmed than I can tell me what I should be hearing that is so great in the playing of Roy Campbell? I recently perused the Penguin and see that he studied w/ Lee Morgan and Cook and Morton even give him great accolades. Fine as a colorist but for me any session I hear with him in support is usually sunk when he spotlites. I'm trying to make some rationale for this guy but I just can't.

Edited December 6, 2004 by Man with the Golden Arm

[pryan]

Give it a listen and find me a recently-recorded trumpet solo better than this one. I'm not particularly big Wynton fan, and don't own anything he recorded after the mid 1980's. But I do acknowledge that he has alot of ability, even though it is rarely displayed.

This solo isn't even all that "pyrotechnic". In fact, it doesn't even really sound like anything I've heard by him before. Obviously, playing with progressive musicians like Kimbrough, Allison, and Wilson was inspiring to him, and he unleased a monster of a solo on this particular track. No Stanley Crouch essays, and no commentary by Wynton, just a fantastic good ol' fashioned trumpet solo with lots harmonic and rhythmic variation that paints a beautiful picture. You don't have to agree with me about it being one of the best...but give it a listen and try not to be so close-minded. You sound like Hardbop when he's talking about a Fender Rhodes.

I wasn't being close-minded -- don't even think of comparing me to Heaney -- I just think that your statement was being too grandiose. I concur with canonball-addict, Hargrove unleashes some dandy solos on that Bird-tribute album with Roy Haynes. You should check that shit out if you want to hear some good trumpet playing.

A bass-playing friend of mine was telling me to check out BLACK CODES, that's supposed to be one of Wynton's finer efforts.

[Trumpet Guy]

Hi Pryan(Paul)!

Thanks very much! Its been 2 years since I recorded "Playful Intentions" so I should be ready to do a new one, but haven't "felt it" yet. Thankfully FSNT is ready when I am.

Sal--I dig your passion! There just is too much music to make such a bold proclamation...Sal, I know you dig Pelt! Avishai Cohen is playing some scary solos, so I hope you heard all those

Man With The Golden Arm--I do feel you. I've bought 5 or 6 Campbell's & keep searching for what I'm not hearing, if you catch my drift...

[pryan]

Hi Pryan(Paul)!

Thanks very much! Its been 2 years since I recorded "Playful Intentions" so I should be ready to do a new one, but haven't "felt it" yet. Thankfully FSNT is ready when I am.

Make sure to keep us all informed. B-)

[Big Wheel]

I don't think that Dorham is overrated but I can see how he can leave some people underwhelmed. There's something about Whistle Stop that leaves me cold about half the time I play it. I'm not sure if it's the music or the RVG remastering, but it just doesn't seem to crackle the way you'd expect it to. The writing is top-notch, it's just the playing that I sometimes find lacking.

That's strange because I really like WHISTLE STOP. Everyone is in fine form: Hank, the leader, a top-notch rhythm section that is just cooking. Maybe you don't dig the compositions, although I find that hard to believe as well. Give it another chance.

Whistle Stop is an awesome record, in my opinion! A love-at-first-listen affair, for me! Maybe my favourite Dorham, together with the Jazz Prophets' recordings.

No, I dig the tunes. I just sometimes think that the band doesn't gel in a way that I find enjoyable. As I said, the remastering may play a role (weird, because I can usually hear beyond it).

[marcoliv]

He's probably my favorite of the younger generation of trumpet players.

he's my favorite too

Marcus

[DrJ]

pryan 

Posted: Dec 6 2004, 05:49 AM

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QUOTE (DrJ @ Dec 5 2004, 10:13 PM)

For sure if you based your opinion of Hargrove on his track record as a recording leader, you'd say he was vastly overrated. But once you see him live you understand what all the fuss is about.

When/Where did you see Roy perform live, Dr. J? Was it with his quintet? If I ever get the chance to see him live, I'm definitely going to jump at it. He's probably my favorite of the younger generation of trumpet players.

Pryan, I have seen him a couple times...most memorable was with the Cedar Walton Trio, both he and Johnny Griffin were guesting as horns for shows at Yoshi's in Oakland, CA. He was very, very impressive there, I finally "got" what all the fuss was about. Seen him at some shows in Monterey as well. It's really a shame he's seldom come across so well on recordings.

Edited December 7, 2004 by DrJ

[Enterprise Server]

A bass-playing friend of mine was telling me to check out BLACK CODES, that's supposed to be one of Wynton's finer efforts.

You should check it out. It is a very fine recording by Wynton. I'm not a big Wynton fan per se, but I'm surely not on board with this hard core Marsalis bashing and denigrating him as a trumpet player. I have noticed this seething vitriol towards Wynton for a while and much of it seems unwarranted or either grossly exaggerated. Saying the man cannot play is simply dishonest or just stupid. As I said, I'm not a big fan of Wynton (I think Bradford is much more creative and open) and I have only his first four recordings (lost interest after that) but I don't agree with the "he's not a good trumpet player" mantra. It's simply not true.

[Guy Berger]

A bass-playing friend of mine was telling me to check out BLACK CODES, that's supposed to be one of Wynton's finer efforts.

You should check it out. It is a very fine recording by Wynton. I'm not a big Wynton fan per se, but I'm surely not on board with this hard core Marsalis bashing and denigrating him as a trumpet player. I have noticed this seething vitriol towards Wynton for a while and much of it seems unwarranted or either grossly exaggerated. Saying the man cannot play is simply dishonest or just stupid. As I said, I'm not a big fan of Wynton (I think Bradford is much more creative and open) and I have only his first four recordings (lost interest after that) but I don't agree with the "he's not a good trumpet player" mantra. It's simply not true.

Amen. I haven't heard the whole album, but the four or five I've heard is outstanding. The group (both Marsali, Kirkland, Moffett, Watts) is incredibly tight.

Guy

[Dennis_M]

Reading through this old thread, I was astonished that Maynard Ferguson, unless I missed it, was never even mentioned. I was equally astonished that Clark Terry WAS mentioned. I could listen to Terry for six straight hours. A couple of hours of Maynard would cause me to look for some rope, a gun, or perhaps a cliff to jump off of.

[Chuck Nessa]

I could listen to Terry for six straight hours

I fear after 6 hours my wife would have to chip the sugar crust off so I could move again.

[Larry Kart]

"I fear after 6 hours my wife would have to chip the sugar crust off so I could move again."

[Dennis_M]

So nobody has answered my implied question. Would you prefer to listen to MF or CT for six straight hours?

I think the "sugar coated" image of CT is really selling him short. He was a great blues player, and could really swing. Yes, he clowned around, but listen to "Yes, the Blues" and tell me he was sugar coated. I suppose you think Dizzy was sweet also....

[Dennis_M]

Your loss.

[Chuck Nessa]

My loss too.

[John L]

6 hours straight of MF? Now that would be a MF.

Edited December 11, 2004 by John L

[Chuck Nessa]

For me, a Clark Terry chorus contains 3 winks, 4 nudges and an occasional whoopie cushion. It has nothing to do with his "stage presentation/comedy". I was talking about music. Diz occupied a whole different world.

[slide_advantage_redoux]

I don't want to be mistaken for being a fan of Wynton, because I am most definitely not. That said, I can't agree that he is an "over rated trumpet player". Over rated jazz player certainly, but taken on his merits as a pure trumpet player, there are few that can match his control. (Yeah, I know this IS a jazz room, and the topic probably should be assumed to be taken in a jazz sense)

As far as a jazz player, the cat just can't swing. And when he comes close to approximating some semblance of it, it comes across as academic.

Wynton loses me everytime I think I will give him another chance. He never has reached me emotionally with his playing.

Also, he seems so f***ing arrogant and self defined as some sort of jazz prophet, like it ain't jazz unless He says so. I think that he wants to be viewed as the Duke of the new millenium.

I acknowledge all the tireless work he does in the interest of "jazz", his outreach activities in the schools, Lincoln Center orchestra, etc etc, but I still won't reserve a place in my collection for his jazz recordings.

I remember his interview in Jazz Times (1982 or '83?) in which he more or less stated that this was "black man's music" and no white man would play in his bands. Sorry, but that started him off on the wrong foot as far as I was concerned. Jazz is about expression, honesty and communication, not the color of your skin.

Now bear with me while I step down off of my soap box.

Kenny Dorham...definitely underrated, not over rated.

I am pleased to see that in the course of 8 pages on this thread that no one dared put Clifford or Fats down.

Edited December 11, 2004 by slide_advantage_redoux

[pmf]

I don't want to be mistaken for being a fan of Wynton, because I am most definitely not. That said, I can't agree that he is an "over rated trumpet player". Over rated jazz player certainly, but taken on his merits as a pure trumpet player, there are few that can match his control. (Yeah, I know this IS a jazz room, and the topic probably should be assumed to be taken in a jazz sense)

As far as a jazz player, the cat just can't swing. And when he comes close to approximating some semblance of it, it comes across as academic.

Wynton loses me everytime I think I will give him another chance. He never has reached me emotionally with his playing.

Also, he seems so f***ing arrogant and self defined as some sort of jazz prophet, like it ain't jazz unless He says so. I think that he wants to be viewed as the Duke of the new millenium.

I acknowledge all the tireless work he does in the interest of "jazz", his outreach activities in the schools, Lincoln Center orchestra, etc etc, but I still won't reserve a place in my collection for his jazz recordings.

I remember his interview in Jazz Times (1982 or '83?) in which he more or less stated that this was "black man's music" and no white man would play in his bands. Sorry, but that started him off on the wrong foot as far as I was concerned. Jazz is about expression, honesty and communication, not the color of your skin.

Now bear with me while I step down off of my soap box.

Kenny Dorham...definitely underrated, not over rated.

I am pleased to see that in the course of 8 pages on this thread that no one dared put Clifford or Fats down.

[pmf]

(Sorry folks, I obviously don't know how to insert a quote).

For me: Maynard F.=Fingernails on a chalkboard.

Wynton: I like some of his work. I dislike his self appointment as chief of the 'Jazz Police'.

Chuck Mangione: Why???? How????

pmf

[montg]

Welcome aboard, PMF.

The 'Dinah Jams' CD which has Ferguson and CLifford Brown side by side is pretty instructive, imo. Of course, not many trumpeters are going to cut Clifford Brown.

[Larry Kart]

Maynard isn't really a jazz player IMO but a special effect -- but when that's the effect you need or want, there's nothing else like him. Thank God, some will say, but there's a realm of "lose your mind" expressive excess that at times needs to be explored, and Maynard (especially the '50-'53 Maynard with Kenton) can go you there in ways, and to degrees, that are unlike those that other high-note guys can reach, at least in my experience. For instance, Al Killian was pretty nutty way up there, but his nuttiness had a different flavor than Maynard's, while Cat Anderson, to my mind, was more like a whistler.

[JSngry]

As his work on baritone horn & valve trombone has shown (as has as the late-60s small group work he did when his chops were down - some might recall the piece from my BFT), Maynard's a perfectly competent jazz player, at least in the "professional" (some might say "studio", and accurately so, imo) sense. He can make the changes effortlessly, and has a broad enough vocabulary to not repeat himself over the course of multiple choruses. Now, that's a far cry from saying that he's a JAZZ PLAYER, if you know what I mean, but labeling him as strictly a high note specialist isn't quite accurate. If the guy had to depend on "regular" jazz playing to make his nut, he'd have been in a bad way, but not horribly so. At least not in his time and place...

Personally, I think his most important contribution has been as a bandleader. Not so much for the output of those bands, but just because he's consistently given a free reign to young players and writers. Never mind what those free hands have gotten up to (although, Willie Maiden is a long-time personal "quirky hero" of mine) - anybody who's done big band work at any level will tell you that the kind of freedom and encouragement that Maynard gives his people is quite rare, and certainly is appreciated long after the association ends. You'd be hard pressed to find anybody (other than maybe Jaki Byard) who's got anything bad to say about the experience.

[Larry Kart]

Yeah -- I've got the Maynard Mosaic set, and it's full of smart, ballsy music.

[frank m]

forgive me if I repeat myself here, but these simple words define Wynton to me:

Good lip, No ideas.