over-rated trumpet players

[tooter]

I'm sure this must have been thought of before, but as we've got a thread started by Rooster Ties on under-rated trumpet players, how about one for over-rated players of that clarion instrument? More room for disagreement? There's always somebody thinks they're wonderful.

So I'll jump in with what I think are two obvious, prominent cases.

Wynton Marsalis. I remember him saying that to play jazz is like trying to catch a snake (or something like that). Seems to me he let the snake go. Success?

Clark Terry. He bemoaned practising for years and years on the trumpet and then becoming "famous" for "Mumbles" which about sums it up. Great personality, a "character" definitely (BTW, no "a" in this word ) and often good fun to listen to, but I think he lacks real flair for improvisation.

We can of course include flugelhorns, cornets, etc.

[couw]

Edited June 4, 2004 by couw

[tooter]

Couw - Which one? Or both?

[Dan Gould]

You're nuts, Tooter.

I mean, I can understand listing Wynton, but Clark Terry????

The man is probably one of the very most easily recognizable trumpeters in the world-you can identify his sound in about three notes, and its not cause he never has anything to say!

[couw]

Couw - Which one? Or both?

click the icon tooter.

[catesta]

If you're saying who I think you're saying, sign me up as well.

[JSngry]

Arturo Sandoval.

[king ubu]

Couw - Which one? Or both?

Do you mean you don't like this guy here: ?

And who said the world does change?

And I don't agree on Terry, either. He may have his bag, but then, Benny Bailey (who I don't think is overrated, and who has just been mentioned in the underrated trumpet player thread), has his bag of tricks, too.

ubu

[tooter]

And I don't agree on Terry, either. He may have his bag, but then, Benny Bailey (who I don't think is overrated, and who has just been mentioned in the underrated trumpet player thread), has his bag of tricks, too.

ubu

I guess that's it - they all have their bag of tricks - it's just that some have larger bags than others and the quality of the contents varies. I just know I can't keep listening to Clark Terry for all that long. Some keep changing the contents of their bag and others don't, or not much.

And I don't think recognisability has got anything to do with it, Dan. Perhaps he's easily recognised because he frequently plays the same phrases.

Over to the Miles thread now - so long.

[Dan Gould]

And I don't think recognisability has got anything to do with it, Dan. Perhaps he's easily recognised because he frequently plays the same phrases.

He's recognizable because of his tone.

I said he's recognizable in about three notes, meaning that he is recognizable right from the get-go, on the head, so even if he uses the same phrases often, that hardly explains why his sound (which is the most important attribute a horn player has) is so recognizable.

[Dan Gould]

And by the way, on Terry's Mumbles schtick, a little goes a long way for me, too. But that hardly takes away from his superior trumpet playing.

[Eric]

Terrell Stafford - I just cannot warm up to his playing

Kenny Dorham - gasp - something is lacking for me

Booker Little - ditto, the sort of "running" playing doesn't do it for me

[Larry Kart]

Tooter -- I think I know what you mean about Clark Terry and agree up to a point. Reviewing him several years in a row when he came into town in the '80s, it was hard not to notice how casual he was about paying attention to the shape of his lines in the moment; he had, a la Harry Edison perhaps, so many stock devices (most of them more or less attractive) that he usually just strung them together--this being especially evident when you heard him on a semi-regular basis. Then one time he was paired with Al Cohn (Clark usually worked as a single), and because Al only had one gear -- all out -- Clark was led/forced to shift into that gear too, and the results were startlingly different. Recordings of Terry at that level don't lie think upon the ground in my experience -- his old Emarcy album Swahili is one and of course his Riverside with Monk. Don't have any of the albums of the old Terry/Bookmeyer quintet any more but recall that he was in top form on some of those tracks (a candidate for reissue?)

[Rooster_Ties]

Arturo Sandoval.

Couldn't agree more. My uncle plays me bits of his Sandoval CD's every time I visit, and I don't think I've ever heard an inspired note come out of his horn.

[tooter]

Tooter -- I think I know what you mean about Clark Terry and agree up to a point. Reviewing him several years in a row when he came into town in the '80s, it was hard not to notice how casual he was about paying attention to the shape of his lines in the moment; he had, a la Harry Edison perhaps, so many stock devices (most of them more or less attractive) that he usually just strung them together--this being especially evident when you heard him on a semi-regular basis. Then one time he was paired with Al Cohn (Clark usually worked as a single), and because Al only had one gear -- all out -- Clark was led/forced to shift into that gear too, and the results were startlingly different. Recordings of Terry at that level don't lie think upon the ground in my experience -- his old Emarcy album Swahili is one and of course his Riverside with Monk. Don't have any of the albums of the old Terry/Bookmeyer quintet any more but recall that he was in top form on some of those tracks (a candidate for reissue?)

Overrated (or under) is relative - a player can be rated at a high level and be overrated only a little, or at a lower level and overrated a lot - or vice versa.

Larry - very interesting to hear of your experiences with CT. Surely there must be a lot in the level of stimulation a player is subject to. Some need it, some don't.

[Dmitry]

re:Wynton. I'm not a convert, but his recent playing at the Ornette Coleman tribute at Merkin Hall was very good.

I think if he adhered more to the New Orleans music he'd be express himself to the fullest.

[tooter]

(which is the most important attribute a horn player has)

Dan - isn't this a bit like saying a ballet dancer's right foot is more important than her left? Not that I know anything about ballet dancing I hasten to add - perhaps it is! I think the notes played, for a start, are of at least equal importance to the sound employed to produce them. Horn players can have a sound that is not so attractive/forceful/individual/musical even (etc) and yet still manage to play rivetting jazz. I do think the tone is important, however, just not more important.

[tooter]

re:Wynton. I'm not a convert, but his recent playing at the Ornette Coleman tribute at Merkin Hall was very good.

I think if he adhered more to the New Orleans music he'd be express himself to the fullest.

I confess to not having heard Wynton recently at all, from choice as I have dismissed him from my lists. This is surely unfair as all players no doubt have ebbs and flows, and in some cases quite markedly so I imagine.

Edited June 4, 2004 by tooter

[tooter]

Another name I thought about adding but didn't at the time was Marlon Jordan. I have only heard him once, on record, but disliked his playing so much that I have never listened to him since. Is this also unfair? - anyone can have an off day. I have little idea of what his "rating" might be. If it's very low then perhaps he doesn't qualify as being overrated. Is anyone familiar with his playing of late?

[Bright Moments]

Kenny Dorham - gasp - something is lacking for me

sorry, but you are just plain wrong about kenny dorham.

check out "una mas" and get back to us!

[JSngry]

Plenty of players that others like/love that I just don't "get", but I hesitate to call them "overrated" simply because I recognize their validity and respect their professional integrety and stuff like that.

Having said that, I really don't "get" Tom Harrell and Conte Candoli, for starters. But remember, I'm not calling them "overrated". The same holds true to a lesser extent for a substantial portion of Chet Baker's recorded work, but in his case, the exceptions are so nice that I really shouldn't be mentioning his name in this context. But it's too late now!

And for that matter, I'd like to think that I just haven't heard the performance by Virgil Jones that allows me to see why he popped up with seemingly great regularity at Rudy's for Prestige & Muse dates for a good while.

[JSngry]

Horn players can have a sound that is not so attractive/forceful/individual/musical even (etc) and yet still manage to play rivetting jazz. 

Name one.

Especially one who lacks the "individual" aspect.

Edited June 4, 2004 by JSngry

[couw]

Horn players can have a sound that is not so attractive/forceful/individual/musical even (etc) and yet still manage to play rivetting jazz. I do think the tone is important, however, just not more important.

Name one.

Especially one who lacks the "individual" aspect.

Eric Alexander?

[JSngry]

Horn players can have a sound that is not so attractive/forceful/individual/musical even (etc) and yet still manage to play rivetting jazz. I do think the tone is important, however, just not more important.

Name one.

Especially one who lacks the "individual" aspect.

Eric Alexander?

Uh.........

[tooter]

Plenty of players that others like/love that I just don't "get", but I hesitate to call them "overrated" simply because I recognize their validity and respect their professional integrety and stuff like that.

Having said that, I really don't "get" Tom Harrell and Conte Candoli, for starters. But remember, I'm not calling them "overrated".

I've got (borrowed) Tom Harrell's big band album [Time's Mirror] at the moment. There is a good review at AMG and yet I found it uninspired mostly, not to say insipid, somehow. And yet when he played with the Gerry Mulligan big band a few years ago he struck me as very inspired indeed. Ebbs and flows?

Do we use overrrated/underrated as a convenience just to say who we like or don't like? As I mentioned before, it should be relative but I doubt that it often is. How do we know what their rating is? Very subjective and probably seriously inaccurate, unavoidably.