Hard Bossa ?

[seeline]

Well, but... Baby Consuelo and Os Novos Baianos were more on a rock/MPB tip, with strong influences from forró, frevo and some other northeastern Brazilian musical styles. (One of my Brazilian friends says that they were the 1st band to combine those styles with rock, though other people were doing similar things back in the late 60s-early 70s.) Nice clip - dates back to the early 70s, most likely.

fwiw, Céu's name means "sky." (There's another youngish MPB singer named "Céumar," aka "sky sea." She's said that her parents were hippies; I bet that's true of Céu's as well.)

*

I have to say that Céu's music leaves me feeling fairly indifferent. She's good, but there are better young singers out there who aren't getting half the PR she is (outside of Brazil, at least). Her stuff seems to be mainstream MPB, to my ears - well-made, but a bit too "pop" for my taste.

Edited November 2, 2009 by seeline

[Man with the Golden Arm]

"see", that's why I defer...

who other female singers, "pop" that appeals to your tastes and the like, that are really knocking you out? Céu kinda opens things up with her accessible modernism ... sort of the same when Marisa Monte took in Arto and came up with a very different sound to these northern ears.

[king ubu]

Bebel I don't know at all so far... she'd have played in Zurich on Sunday, but a short pre-view in the local media although heavily biased towards Bebel still made me think I'd enjoy her a lot less than CéU...

Bought this one last week:

Sounded nice when checking it out in the store, and it was on sale... haven't listened to it yet though.

[seeline]

"see", that's why I defer...

who other female singers, "pop" that appeals to your tastes and the like, that are really knocking you out? Céu kinda opens things up with her accessible modernism ... sort of the same when Marisa Monte took in Arto and came up with a very different sound to these northern ears.

Hey, thanks, although I have to say my tastes don't run much to pop, so it's kind of hard for me to give you a good answer on that. But you might check out this thread, for starters...

Edited November 2, 2009 by seeline

[A Lark Ascending]

I liked the first Bebel Gilberto album, was indifferent to the second and found the third toe-curlingly unlistenable (not necessarily a bad album but very glossy pop which is not my area of choice).

For a really classy contemporary take on Brazil try Paula Morelenbaum's two albums...it took me a few goes to get past the electronica but I'm a real fan now. That should take you nicely to the straighter albums with her husband which are magical.

Otherwise, just go straight to Joyce and Monica Salmaso whose records are nigh on perfect.

And I'd put in a word for a UK based Brazilian singer, Monica Vasconcelos - her album of last year, 'HiH', is wonderful with plenty of new songwriting and some seriously good contributions from Robert Wyatt.

I've learnt about all of these people (apart from the last one) from people like Seeline and Lon here. Guaranteed love-affair with this music!

[Harold_Z]

Bebel I don't know at all so far... she'd have played in Zurich on Sunday, but a short pre-view in the local media although heavily biased towards Bebel still made me think I'd enjoy her a lot less than CéU...

Bought this one last week:

Sounded nice when checking it out in the store, and it was on sale... haven't listened to it yet though.

There is a dvd of this available. I think it's called "Rio Nights". I have to dig up my copy. It's really great.

[seeline]

I liked the first Bebel Gilberto album, was indifferent to the second and found the third toe-curlingly unlistenable (not necessarily a bad album but very glossy pop which is not my area of choice).

Part of the problem (re. differences between her 1st album and others) is that Suba - her producer - died. And nobody else has been able to recreate the feel/sound that he came up with for her 1st album.

For a really classy contemporary take on Brazil try Paula Morelenbaum's two albums...it took me a few goes to get past the electronica but I'm a real fan now. That should take you nicely to the straighter albums with her husband which are magical.

OK, you guys are talking me into those recent albums of Paula's... will give one or the other a go.

[Harold_Z]

There is a brand new Paula Morelenbaum album and it is excellent. BOSSARENOVA on Skip records. It's Paula with the SWR Big Band. I ordered my copy directly from Skip and had it in a few days. Great record!

[seeline]

Harold, thanks for the info. - sounds really good!

[jazzbo]

There is a brand new Paula Morelenbaum album and it is excellent. BOSSARENOVA on Skip records. It's Paula with the SWR Big Band. I ordered my copy directly from Skip and had it in a few days. Great record!

I ordered a copy of this and received it today. Awesome!

An interesting Paula and SWR video:

More videos on the right.

Edited November 14, 2009 by jazzbo

[leite13]

Hi folks.

I just registered in the forum, and I see there is serious music discussion going on here.

I think it would be nice to discuss the musical aspect of the so-called "hard bossa". This period of brazilian music (late 50's, early 60's) is of major importance for the later development of Brasil's popular music. In short, they managed to transform the samba language, in some way modernizing it, once it has been adapted to the drum, piano and bass formation.

Of course jazz music being produced in US played an important role in this process, but must be stressed the maintenance of the fundamental pilar represented by samba. Samba constitutes the core of this music. The beat is a abreviation of samba beat. Edison Machado, Dom um Romão, Milton Banana, Wilson das Neves were already great sambists when they discovered jazz music.

Although these artists were avid jazz listeners, they managed to incorporate only operational aspects of jazz music to their own music. The harmony comes from jazz, but the other aspects of this music (like compass or beat) are very different from any kind of jazz - swing, bop, cool, etc.

It is important to see that "hard bossa" uses jazz language to adapt samba music to the conventional popular music formation including drum, bass, piano, and eventually some blow instruments. It is like they developed instrumental samba with a much wider range of possiblities, radically differing from the old samba recordings from the 40's-50's. This is where jazz music was important. But, again, the music as a hole is different. The easiest way to understand that is to listen to any jazz record from the 50's and compare it to any of the records mencioned in this thread.

In this way, this music and all it have influenced must not be called "brazilian jazz" or "samba jazz". Maybe "modern samba" or even Bossa Nova are better labels.

I hope you guys have already listened to "hard bossa" enough to actually feel stimulated to discuss.

See ya.

Edited January 13, 2010 by leite13

[Jim R]

Hi folks.

I just registered in the forum, and I see there is serious music discussion going on here.

I think it would be nice to discuss the musical aspect of the so-called "hard bossa". This period of brazilian music (late 50's, early 60's) is of major importance for the later development of Brasil's popular music. In short, they managed to transform the samba language, in some way modernizing it, once it has been adapted to the drum, piano and bass formation.

Of course jazz music being produced in US played an important role in this process, but must be stressed the maintenance of the fundamental pilar represented by samba. Samba constitutes the core of this music. The beat is a abreviation of samba beat. Edison Machado, Dom um Romão, Milton Banana, Wilson das Neves were already great sambists when they discovered jazz music.

Although these artists were avid jazz listeners, they managed to incorporate only operational aspects of jazz music to their own music. The harmony comes from jazz, but the other aspects of this music (like compass or beat) are very different from any kind of jazz - swing, bop, cool, etc.

It is important to see that "hard bossa" uses jazz language to adapt samba music to the conventional popular music formation including drum, bass, piano, and eventually some blow instruments. It is like they developed instrumental samba with a much wider range of possiblities, radically differing from the old samba recordings from the 40's-50's. This is where jazz music was important. But, again, the music as a hole is different. The easiest way to understand that is to listen to any jazz record from the 50's and compare it to any of the records mencioned in this thread.

In this way, this music and all it have influenced must not be called "brazilian jazz" or "samba jazz". Maybe "modern samba" or even Bossa Nova are better labels.

I hope you guys have already listened to "hard bossa" enough to actually feel stimulated to discuss.

See ya.

Welcome, leite13, and thank you for returning to the original topic (no offense to those who have been following the natural tangents that have developed here). I am always glad to see posts here from enthusiastic people, and it's great when we get the knowledge and perspective from someone in Brasil.

I think we did have a pretty good discussion about this music back when this thread was beginning, but there's no reason we shouldn't continue or even go back and make corrections. If you would care to, you can go back and "quote" from earlier posts and respond to them specifically by clicking on the "reply" button. Again, welcome!

Oh, I'm also glad you brought this topic back up, because it made me aware that I needed to edit a few of my early posts in order to update the URL's for some of the cover images that had expired. I hope that newcomers will go back and look at the beginning of the thread to look at the artist and recording recommendations. Much of the material is still in print, thankfully.

[Jim R]

Some time ago, Bluesnik posted here regarding a Joao Donato recording, "Muito A Vontade":

Donato was an artist that I might have included in my initial posts here, but never got around to it. Here then are a couple of other 1960's titles I can recommend...

=====

Another one I glossed over was Milton Banana, who did a lot of recordings as a leader (as well as a sideman) in the 60's. Better late than never...

... and others by the prolific Mr. Banana.

[leite13]

Hi folks.

I just registered in the forum, and I see there is serious music discussion going on here.

I think it would be nice to discuss the musical aspect of the so-called "hard bossa". This period of brazilian music (late 50's, early 60's) is of major importance for the later development of Brasil's popular music. In short, they managed to transform the samba language, in some way modernizing it, once it has been adapted to the drum, piano and bass formation.

Of course jazz music being produced in US played an important role in this process, but must be stressed the maintenance of the fundamental pilar represented by samba. Samba constitutes the core of this music. The beat is a abreviation of samba beat. Edison Machado, Dom um Romão, Milton Banana, Wilson das Neves were already great sambists when they discovered jazz music.

Although these artists were avid jazz listeners, they managed to incorporate only operational aspects of jazz music to their own music. The harmony comes from jazz, but the other aspects of this music (like compass or beat) are very different from any kind of jazz - swing, bop, cool, etc.

It is important to see that "hard bossa" uses jazz language to adapt samba music to the conventional popular music formation including drum, bass, piano, and eventually some blow instruments. It is like they developed instrumental samba with a much wider range of possiblities, radically differing from the old samba recordings from the 40's-50's. This is where jazz music was important. But, again, the music as a hole is different. The easiest way to understand that is to listen to any jazz record from the 50's and compare it to any of the records mencioned in this thread.

In this way, this music and all it have influenced must not be called "brazilian jazz" or "samba jazz". Maybe "modern samba" or even Bossa Nova are better labels.

I hope you guys have already listened to "hard bossa" enough to actually feel stimulated to discuss.

See ya.

Welcome, leite13, and thank you for returning to the original topic (no offense to those who have been following the natural tangents that have developed here). I am always glad to see posts here from enthusiastic people, and it's great when we get the knowledge and perspective from someone in Brasil.

I think we did have a pretty good discussion about this music back when this thread was beginning, but there's no reason we shouldn't continue or even go back and make corrections. If you would care to, you can go back and "quote" from earlier posts and respond to them specifically by clicking on the "reply" button. Again, welcome!

Oh, I'm also glad you brought this topic back up, because it made me aware that I needed to edit a few of my early posts in order to update the URL's for some of the cover images that had expired. I hope that newcomers will go back and look at the beginning of the thread to look at the artist and recording recommendations. Much of the material is still in print, thankfully.

Hi.

I see there is some discussion about musical aspects of "hard bossa", and this stimulates me even more to share my thoughts with the community. Sorry, I haven't read the initial pages with attention before.

This is wonderful music that should be discussed and listened to!

I am willing to help you guys in terms of finding records and sharing experiences from Brasil. Just let me know!

Now, as initial recommendations, listen to both Rio 65 Trio and Salvador Trio records. Pay attention to the tracks based on samba beat, once there are tracks played in the standard jazz pattern also.

It is very interesting also to listen to a specific track in Jongo Trio's initial record in order to appreciate the difference between the standard jazz beat and modern samba beat. The track is called "Garota Moderna", and you should pay attention to the initial seconds of the track, when the group rapidly changes the beat of the music.

See ya.

[seeline]

leite, it's nice to have you posting on this topic!

if you look around a bit, you will find other threads on Brazilian music...

all the best,

s.

[Jim R]

Hi.

I see there is some discussion about musical aspects of "hard bossa", and this stimulates me even more to share my thoughts with the community. Sorry, I haven't read the initial pages with attention before.

This is wonderful music that should be discussed and listened to!

I am willing to help you guys in terms of finding records and sharing experiences from Brasil. Just let me know!

Now, as initial recommendations, listen to both Rio 65 Trio and Salvador Trio records. Pay attention to the tracks based on samba beat, once there are tracks played in the standard jazz pattern also.

The Dom Salvador recordings were included in our early discussion, but The Rio 65 Trio were not (and should have been!)...

Great piano trio recordings.

It is very interesting also to listen to a specific track in Jongo Trio's initial record in order to appreciate the difference between the standard jazz beat and modern samba beat. The track is called "Garota Moderna", and you should pay attention to the initial seconds of the track, when the group rapidly changes the beat of the music.

See ya.

It seems there's a problem with your image link. Anyway, I'm not sure if we mentioned the Jongo Trio earlier here... wonderful music. Here is the album leite is referring to:

Time to listen to these recordings again. Thank you for the reminder.

[Bright Moments]

not hard - but definately bossa - i have discovered lisa ono!

[Jim R]

not hard - but definately bossa - i have discovered lisa ono!

Probably the wrong thread, but yeah, I've been enjoying her for years and I think she's wonderful. Very talented and classy, and understands the music on a deep level. She worked with Jobim in his last years, and with Paulo and Daniel subsequent to the master's passing.

I wonder if she was mentioned in one of the other Bossa/Brazilian threads... she may even deserve a thread of her own.

[mikeweil]

Just received this from Trunk Records - a lost gem of Afro-Braziliana from 1958, LP copies go for GP 1.000 - the CD/LP reissue may be limited. very nice rootsy stuff.

[mikeweil]

p.s. you can listen to samples on the download page.

[blind-blake]

Anyone heard of Moacyr Silva - Brazillian sax player? Any thoughts? He seems to have made a million records in the 50s (and 60s?) Can't find much on him, but Zeca Lauro (Loronix) seems to have really liked him. Thanks.

See https://orfaosdoloronix.wordpress.com/category/moacyr-silva/

Edited August 8, 2015 by blind-blake

[ghost of miles]

Can anybody speak to the worthiness of this compilation?

Bossa Jazz: Birth of Hard Bossa, Samba and Brazilian Fusion

I got the earlier entry in this series and was pleased with it--thinking about picking this one up as well.

 

[Jim R]

Can anybody speak to the worthiness of this compilation?

Bossa Jazz: Birth of Hard Bossa, Samba and Brazilian Fusion

I got the earlier entry in this series and was pleased with it--thinking about picking this one up as well.

 

Not to put down any of the individual artists or recordings included on there, but to me it seems kind of ridiculous to try to represent a span of time (and styles) like that with 14 tracks, let alone coming up with such a goofy title (birth of Samba??).  Either a misguided concept, or an opportunity to market some things that were available on the cheap, or both.  As a compilation for familiarizing oneself with a variety of Brazilian material which may or may not have anything to do with giving birth to anything in particular, it's probably fine.

[king ubu]

Anyone heard of Moacyr Silva - Brazillian sax player? Any thoughts? He seems to have made a million records in the 50s (and 60s?) Can't find much on him, but Zeca Lauro (Loronix) seems to have really liked him. Thanks.

See https://orfaosdoloronix.wordpress.com/category/moacyr-silva/

recently listened to this one again (no, I don't own a physical copy):

very good, I found - and some outstanding tenor playing!

[blind-blake]

Anyone heard of Moacyr Silva - Brazillian sax player? Any thoughts? He seems to have made a million records in the 50s (and 60s?) Can't find much on him, but Zeca Lauro (Loronix) seems to have really liked him. Thanks.

See https://orfaosdoloronix.wordpress.com/category/moacyr-silva/

 

recently listened to this one again (no, I don't own a physical copy):

very good, I found - and some outstanding tenor playing!

The very, very little I've heard sounds intriguing. Wish the Loronix blog was still active. Gotta scour the Internet, I guess. Except for YouTube, there's nothing by him in all my usual places. Thanks KU.

 

Edited August 9, 2015 by blind-blake