Charlie Parker- Verve master takes

[take5]

I've had my eye on the Charlie Parker Verve Master Takes box set. I think it's relatively new. It comes in like a tin can.

My questions:

1. How does it sound? Obviously it won't be audiophile quality, but do they use too much noise reduction or anything like that?

2. I'd like to eventually collect everything Charlie Parker released, but am not really interested in false starts, alternates, and all that academic stuff. I'm wondering if this is a good start. Right now, I only have compilations.

[Claude]

It would be a much better start to get the Savoy and Dial recordings (1945-47). These are Bird's best sessions.

They are available in various formats. 4CDs each for the complete Savoy and Dial sessions including alternate takes, or 2CDs each for the master takes only.

[John L]

While I understand your aversion to alternate takes in general, you might consider making an exception for Bird. A major part of his art was spontaneously composing (improvizing) something completely new on a limited set of basic changes. Sometimes, these tracks were given completely new names and released. Sometimes they were not released and kept as "alternates." There were also times, of course, when tracks were rejected as inferior. But I would certainly not want to be without the alternates in the case of Bird.

That said, it may not be as essential to obtain the alternates for the Verve sessions as for the Dial and Savoy sessions. For the latter, I would HIGHLY recommend picking up the whole ball of wax. For the Verve sessions, the masters might do, particular since (as I understand) they have been remastered in a manner superior to the larger 10-disc "complete" set.

[take5]

Ok, cool.

I don't mind alt takes (and yes, I would actually be interested in hearing Bird's), but it really bothers me when they put them next to the masters. I suppose since Bird mostly put out singles, not LPs, it's not a big deal. Ideally, however, I would prefer all the masters seperately from the alts.

I'll check out the Savoy and Dial sets, look for 'em on-line to get a feel for what they're about. Thanks!

[jazzbo]

I have this Verve Master Take set. I really like it! The sound is very good, not scrubbed too cleanly, but with a full sound. The notes are also good, taking the session by session approach and using (I believe) the relevant text from the complete Verve box set for each session. Nice presentation and artwork and photographs as well. A lovingly done set.

I sort of differ from Claude in that this may well be a good starter for Bird. The variety of settings shows his genius off to good effect, and the sound is better (from the source) in some ways than the Savoy or Dial or live sessions will be. It may serve as a more accessible entryway, and I agree with John that of any body of work of Bird's the Verve's may be the one to skip the alternates on for a while. If you get this set, you'll learn a lot about Bird, hear a lot of good clear Bird in a variety of ensembles, and if you get the "bug" hard (I suspect you might) you can then move to the Savoy and Dial sides, the various live collections, and revel in his magnificent work.

[king ubu]

Ok, cool.

I don't mind alt takes (and yes, I would actually be interested in hearing Bird's), but it really bothers me when they put them next to the masters. I suppose since Bird mostly put out singles, not LPs, it's not a big deal. Ideally, however, I would prefer all the masters seperately from the alts.

I'll check out the Savoy and Dial sets, look for 'em on-line to get a feel for what they're about. Thanks!

The 8CD set that was out a few years ago on Savoy, collecting all Savoy and Dial recordings, as well as a few others, has the masters first, followed by all the additional material of the respective session. Quite a good idea, I think.

Also don't forget the 4CD Complete live Savoy set! Some great stuff, there, too! Lots of Kenny Dorham.

ubu

[take5]

Kenny Dorham- there's a cat I haven't listened to in a while. Una Mass, baby!

I saw that 8 CD set on amazon just now- the brown thing with the binder-like spine. The Amazon reviews don't like the packaging.

There's also a three-disc set of master takes for Savoy and Dial.

Eeny meeny miny moe..

[Brad]

I'm going to second what most have already said. The Complete Savoy and Dial is essential and by the way includes more than those labels: the Red Norvo set with Bird and Dizzy, a tremendously important set. To start out with anything less is to cheat yourself. However, if you don't want everything, Proper has the Boss Bird set. Don't have it so I can't say. I don't have the Verve masters but if it's completeness you want, I'd go for the 10 CD box put out several years ago.

I'm not that high on the Verve material as the Savoy-Dial. I can take the string material in small doses. Don't get me wrong, it's good and better than any other kind of string sessions done by other but it pales in comparison to Savoy-Dial, a key part of any jazz collection as there is (the Hot Fives and Sevens, being another key).

[king ubu]

Kenny Dorham- there's a cat I haven't listened to in a while. Una Mass, baby!

I saw that 8 CD set on amazon just now- the brown thing with the binder-like spine. The Amazon reviews don't like the packaging.

There's also a three-disc set of master takes for Savoy and Dial.

Eeny meeny miny moe..

If the prize is right, go for that brown set - never mind packaging too much! It's one of the best box sets of recent years, in my opinion.

ubu

[B. Goren.]

I have Bird's complete recordings on Verve in my collection and it is a real treasure. I have no idea how Verve compressed the master takes into 4 CDs. Does it mean that the rest 6 CDs are full of alt takes and false starts??? I doubt it. Please double check the discography on the 4 CDs set before you shell out your $$$.

Edited May 28, 2004 by B. Goren.

[Claude]

A few studio master takes are missing, which seems to be an error in the concept.

Also missing are the JATP concerts.

[B. Goren.]

A few studio master takes are missing, which seems to be an error in the concept.

Also missing are the JATP concerts.

Thank you for this info Claude.

[RDK]

While the Savoy/Dial sessions are no doubt "better," I'm gonna agree with Lon and others on this one that the Verve sessions are a better "entry point" into the World of Bird.

[take5]

I'm not really looking for an entry point in his music per say. I have the Yardbird Suite collection which culls material from all the labels to make a comprehensive "best of," and "best of" Verve and a live disc. I'm just looking to expand them (and eventually replace them) into a broader collection of Bird. I basically intend to "study" his playing. Like many younger jazz listeners, I've come to Bird "backwards," listening to those he's influenced before actually listening to him.

I want to do the same with Duke Ellington, actually.

[Brad]

I'm not sure that makes sense historically since you're coming to listen to Bird from a post or late bop point of view. I believe that most of us when we think of Bird, think of the revolution or evolution (more correctly) that he and Dizzy wrought. That comes from the mid to late 40s.

If you're looking for an entry point, something like the 2 cd set that Rhino put out, Yardbird Suite, is best. That was my entry point.

[AfricaBrass]

If you want to start studying Bird, I agree with some of the others here and I also recommend the Savoy and Dial recordings. I think you really get him at his peak.

[sal]

I have this Verve Master Take set. I really like it! The sound is very good, not scrubbed too cleanly, but with a full sound. The notes are also good, taking the session by session approach and using (I believe) the relevant text from the complete Verve box set for each session. Nice presentation and artwork and photographs as well. A lovingly done set.

I agree with jazzbo. I have this set and really enjoy it. This, along with the Savoy and Dial Masters, is a perfect start to a great Bird collection.

[take5]

I just nabbed me the complete Dial & Savoy box off e-bay.

I'm gonna savor those tracks slowly, like that really fancy kind of ice-cream...

And then when I've thoroughly digested that, I'll get the Verve masters.

[AfricaBrass]

I just nabbed me the complete Dial & Savoy box off e-bay.

I'm gonna savor those tracks slowly, like that really fancy kind of ice-cream...

And then when I've thoroughly digested that, I'll get the Verve masters.

Cool!

[chris olivarez]

I'm glad I've got the Verve masters. They have a good sound and are good sample of what Parker was all about.

[Claude]

A few weeks ago, while Zweitausendeins was offering the Verve Master Takes set for 36 Euro, I was considering it but concluded it was not worth that price (I already have some of the Verve albums).

Now Amazon.de and JPC.de, the two biggest german online stores are selling it for 65 and 73 Euro respectively, which is more than $25 per CD.

[nmorin]

My suggestion (it's easy to spend someone else's money for them!) would be to purchase both the Verve Master Takes set and the recent 5 CD (and VERY inexpensive--less than $30) JSP set, "A Studio Chronicle: 1940-1948", the latter covering all the master takes up to the Verve sessions. Then you'll have, except for about a half dozen sides, all the master takes of the studio recordings on which Charlie Parker appears, his sessions and as a sideman. Then, if you get hooked, down the road you can pick up the Full Monties of the Complete Savoy and Dials and the Complete Verves.

If I remember right, the remaining studio sides--all inexplicably left of the Verve Master Takes set, unless they just wanted to squeeze the set onto 4 CDs--are Repetition; No Noise, Pts. 1 & 2 ; Mango Mangue; Celebrity (Celerity); Ballade; and the Afro-Cuban Jazz Suite

Edited May 30, 2004 by nmorin

[chris olivarez]

Holy Moley Claude I got it a boatload cheaper at the BMG music club site!!!!No wonder you shined it on!!!!

[Shrdlu]

Take5, you'll really enjoy the Dial stuff. I would count myself as a Bird expert, having devoured just about everything by him that I could get, and having slavishly imitated him on my alto (as much as one could!) for awhile when I was a kid. After a lot of listening, I rate the Dial studio stuff and the radio air shots from 1948-50 as Bird's finest (not that his other recordings are bad). You won't get the best sound, though most of the Dial takes sound quite good, and some of the radio broadcasts sound very clear. But you will get him in his prime, in the aftermath of his rehabilitation at Camarillo, CA, with a regular working group that stayed together for a long time. The heroin etc. that he started taking again took its toll rapidly, and by the time of the Verve sessions, Bird was not as good as in the 1940s. The late 40s was when it was all happening and being laid down. By the fifties, it was pretty much a matter of going along familiar paths, and, also, Bird no longer had a regular group for most of those later years.

The cream of the Dials is the stuff from late 1947: three New York sessions, with a lot of stunning slow numbers such as "Embraceable You". These performances place Parker on a plane much higher than nearly all other jazz musicians. For me, he was the best ever, though probably Louis Armstrong was the most important jazz innovator.

My favorite air shots are the ones said to be from 1950, with Fats Navarro and Bud Powell, including "Ornithology" and "Round Midnight". The sound is poor on these, but the playing is dazzling. You won't hear more fiery live jazz anywhere. The date is suspect, as Fats died at around the time these are said to have been recorded. The other air shots, with Miles or Kenny Dorham, are prime stuff, too. What a shame that these live items were not recorded with more modern equipment.

[DrJ]

Has anyone A/B'd the Verve Master Takes box against the old Complete on Verve box? For its age, the Complete Verve box still sounds really good, but a little muffled. If the Master Takes box was a significant step up in sound I might be willing to take the plunge.