"Swing"

[Juan Amalbert]

Are any composers have any idear how to notae "swing" in "clave?"

[mikeweil]

There are methods to notate rhythmic structures and patterns that have been developped by ethnomusicologists, based on the concepts of beat and elementary pulsation dividing the beat, that would allow such things, but I'm afraid it would look very complicated and not be very easy to read. And it would take a sophisticated graphics software like FreeHand (from Adobe) to do that.

If you accept the equation of a triplet with a straight quarter note that is very much in common in jazz books, it could be done, but I think the problem would be more that jazz players tend to structure rhythm in a linear fashion similar to Western European classical music, whereas music based on the clave and other African-American music, in fact most non-Western music, is cyclic in nature, a rhythmic concept not common to most jazz players, who have to learn how to interlock with other players in a primarily rhythmic way.

Or are you talking about the simpler problem of how to exactly write down a clave pattern in a swing-type phrasing with a triplet feel? That could be done with standard Western notation.

[Juan Amalbert]

There are methods to notate rhythmic structures and patterns that have been developped by ethnomusicologists, based on the concepts of beat and elementary pulsation dividing the beat, that would allow such things, but I'm afraid it would look very complicated and not be very easy to read. And it would take a sophisticated graphics software like FreeHand (from Adobe) to do that.

If you accept the equation of a triplet with a straight quarter note that is very much in common in jazz books, it could be done, but I think the problem would be more that jazz players tend to structure rhythm in a linear fashion similar to Western European classical music, whereas music based on the clave and other African-American music, in fact most non-Western music, is cyclic in nature, a rhythmic concept not common to most jazz players, who have to learn how to interlock with other players in a primarily rhythmic way.

Or are you talking about the simpler problem of how to exactly write down a clave pattern in a swing-type phrasing with a triplet feel? That could be done with standard Western notation.

Well firstly, all swing scores are wriiten not in 4/4 and never with tripolets of any of the two forms, open triplet and or closed triplet.

Your answer is what is out there, and what is out there by musicologist and the likes , still

have not come up with a non-hybrid form of "swing(clave)" in any correct notation.

Good answer however.

[mikeweil]

Well, how do you notate "swing" - in 12/8 or 12/16 time?

I think the problem derives from the background on which Western notation was developped, where durations are very important - it was invented for writing down choral music - but with African-derived music the relative position to the beat of a musical event is much more important - and the placement of notes in relation to the beat or time is what makes music swing. The tension between different pulsations over the same beat happening at the same time, like in the sample in the illustration below.

(from a very interesting work of a German colleague of mine, found

here.

[Juan Amalbert]

Well, how do you notate "swing" - in 12/8 or 12/16 time?

I think the problem derives from the background on which Western notation was developped, where durations are very important - it was invented for writing down choral music - but with African-derived music the relative position to the beat of a musical event is much more important - and the placement of notes in relation to the beat or time is what makes music swing. The tension between different pulsations over the same beat happening at the same time, like in the sample in the illustration below.

(from a very interesting work of a German colleague of mine, found

here.

Well in this disccussion, first let me say that 12/8 or 12/16 would still have the music in 4/4.

Therefore as I said earlier all "swing" for the so-called "jazz" bands normally are written in 2/2.

Of corurse I do no how to notate it correctly, as I'm trying to see should there be some else among us who has made this discovery.

At this time I will not give up this information, adding that the time meters in the "NomenClature" system, or "table Of Notation," all the given time meters are all the same, meaning no matter what the number looks like they are all in 4/4.

This should bring on other points of interest here, when a parent will say to the teacher, "why dosen't my Johnny swing?"

As for" your example by your colleauge in DJembe, even the African cannot notate what he is playing, and unless the transcriber of these rhythms knows the "true Clave" meter, he/we cannot compose it correctly. In other words again I repeat 4/4 is not a universal "standard" time meter.

Edited May 28, 2004 by Juan Amalbert

[mikeweil]

I am convinced there may be more than one way to notate things - music notation is always a projection of sound into a less complex medium and displays certain aspects of the music and neglects others - that is the nature of the process of notation.

If you know the one "right" way to do it - why hold back the information? There can be no copyright on ideas, just as there is no copyright on rhythm. Once you get into it, it will reveal you some secrets and keep other shidden depending of how deep you get into things.

The Clave pattern in its different incarnations can be related to one beat, at the beginning of the pattern, or two, or four - it can be related to three or six beats as well, and all these rhythmic matrices are only approximations of the sound heard and felt. The clave is cyclic in nature. All non-Western rhythm is cyclic. And, please, remember there are many rhythms in oriental music that cannot be divided by two or three and are cyclic as well. There are African rhythms with five beats to one cycle. I think the basic concept of rhythm should be based on two things:

1. an elementary pulsation, a grid on which all sounds can be locked on

2. a concept of beat - but these beat can be regular in the Western European sense, i.e. the time span between them is of equal length - or irregular (I hate this European term), meaning the time span is of different length.

Most rhythmic patterns thus can be displayed in an additive manner using three types of beats, one, two or three elementary pulses in length. And I'm talking about any rhythm from any part of the world, not just African or African-Americna music.

Don't be afraid to share your knowledge - there's no way to abuse it or make money with it. I always shared my rhythmic knowledge and thoughts with anybody interested and was never disappointed. B)

Or is this some rhythm quiz for the Organissimo members?

[mikeweil]

P.S.

I have some doubts wether I get your question correctly - please elaborate what you mean when you say "swing" and "clave". Otherwise we risk talking in different directions.

[Juan Amalbert]

I am convinced there may be more than one way to notate things - music notation is always a projection of sound into a less complex medium and displays certain aspects of the music and neglects others - that is the nature of the process of notation.

If you know the one "right" way to do it - why hold back the information? There can be no copyright on ideas, just as there is no copyright on rhythm. Once you get into it, it will reveal you some secrets and keep other shidden depending of how deep you get into things.

The Clave pattern in its different incarnations can be related to one beat, at the beginning of the pattern, or two, or four - it can be related to three or six beats as well, and all these rhythmic matrices are only approximations of the sound heard and felt. The clave is cyclic in nature. All non-Western rhythm is cyclic. And, please, remember there are many rhythms in oriental music that cannot be divided by two or three and are cyclic as well. There are African rhythms with five beats to one cycle. I think the basic concept of rhythm should be based on two things:

1. an elementary pulsation, a grid on which all sounds can be locked on

2. a concept of beat - but these beat can be regular in the Western European sense, i.e. the time span between them is of equal length - or irregular (I hate this European term), meaning the time span is of different length.

Most rhythmic patterns thus can be displayed in an additive manner using three types of beats, one, two or three elementary pulses in length. And I'm talking about any rhythm from any part of the world, not just African or African-Americna music.

Don't be afraid to share your knowledge - there's no way to abuse it or make money with it. I always shared my rhythmic knowledge and thoughts with anybody interested and was never disappointed. B)

Or is this some rhythm quiz for the Organissimo members?

Rhythm compositions can and are copyright protected.

There are many compositionsthat are totally rhythm and have been registered and copywritten.

There are films where I have written and copy wriiten my works plus publish it.

There is one universal rhythm pattern for all countries in the world other then African and or African-American patterns, of this there is no doubt.

This is not a quiz but a research as to whom I could communicate with , about this subject.

This I have mentioned in earlier notes here on this site.

As for being afraid to share, there is no fear in me to share my findingd here or anywhere.

It would seem that there is no understanding, that is mutual about the meaning of "swing," and or "clave."