What vinyl are you spinning right now??

[HutchFan]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Well, if you want to go full-on Cage and posit that all sound is music, I'll go there, no problem.

Last thing I'll say on this topic, because I fear that I've taken us down a rabbit hole:  I don't think sound and music are the same thing.  It's not my intention to say that they are equivalent.

I think sounds are the building blocks of music.  Music is sounds that have been organized.  Sounds are organized by the composer/musician, and the musical composition is perceived by the listener.  But there is a great deal of "wiggle room" between the composer and the listener.  It's not a 1:1 relationship like math -- or even verbal language. It's a very, very loose language -- and that's one of the things that makes it so wonderful. It's also one of the aspects of music that makes it able to express feelings, ideas, and emotions that seem to reach BEYOND the constraints of everyday language.

 

Re: Cage -- I think he was playing with the idea of sound as music -- without the composer playing any part in organizing it.  The whole aleatory thing.  I suppose that's sort of interesting.  But I prefer sounds that have been organized into music on both the composer's end and the listener's end.  In a piece like 4'33", it's only happening on the listener's end.  Or at least that's what I think he was going for.

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

40 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Last thing I'll say on this topic, because I fear that I've taken us down a rabbit hole:  I don't think sound and music are the same thing.  It's not my intention to say that they are equivalent.

I think sounds are the building blocks of music.  Music is sounds that have been organized.  Sounds are organized by the composer/musician, and the musical composition is perceived by the listener.  But there is a great deal of "wiggle room" between the composer and the listener.  It's not a 1:1 relationship like math -- or even verbal language. It's a very, very loose language -- and that's one of the things that makes it so wonderful. It's also one of the aspects of music that makes it able to express feelings, ideas, and emotions that seem to reach BEYOND the constraints of everyday language.

 

Re: Cage -- I think he was playing with the idea of sound as music -- without the composer playing any part in organizing it.  The whole aleatory thing.  It's suppose that's sort of interesting.  But I prefer sounds that have been organized into music on both the composer's end and the listener's end.  In a piece like 4'33", it's only happening on the listener's end.  Or at least that's what I think he was going for.

 

There's a whole book about 4:33, its origins, its formulation, and its aftermath. that is quite illuminating: No Such Thing as Silence: John Cage's 4'33" (Icons of America): Gann, Kyle: 9780300171297: Amazon.com: Books 

Highly recommended.

Bottom line - with 4'33", Cage was very much about everybody paying attention, not just to one thing at a time, but everything all the time.

One of the more penetrating insights from this is that "composition" is essentially an imposed, discovered construct based on the limitations of the hearer. The more open our ears/minds, the more "composition" we "discover" ("discover" being a misnomer, because how do you discover something that's already there?)

It's a bit of vanity, really, to imagine that we "discover" or "create" music. All sound is always there, somewhere, past, present, and future. All we do is process it as we find it. Nothing more than that.

Now, for the sake of reductive conversation, we label certain things "music" because we don't know any different (or jsut don't want to work that hard at any given point). But if something would be considered "just sound" (or even NOISE) in the 18th Century but is accepted as "music here in the 21st, what has changed? The sound itself? I don't think so. It's the individual and collective awareness and acceptance.

So yes - all sound is POTENTIALLY music, and it's not necessarily a "composer" who can make it so. It is ANYBODY'S prerogative and privilege to do so. Ultimately, we are our own composer. "Organization" is what we make it to be. Ot let it to be.

That may or may not be a "rabbit hole", but I've found it to be more of a thought that once engaged cannot be unthought.

Or more to the point - yes, "music" is indeed "organized sound".

But - whose "organization"? What organization? And if we don't sense it, does that mean it's not there?

[HutchFan]

10 minutes ago, JSngry said:

There's a whole book about 4:33, its origins, its formulation, and its aftermath. that is quite illuminating: No Such Thing as Silence: John Cage's 4'33" (Icons of America): Gann, Kyle: 9780300171297: Amazon.com: Books 

Highly recommended.

[...]

That may or may not be a "rabbit hole", but I've found it to be more of a thought that once engaged cannot be unthought.

Thanks for the book recommendation.  I'll check it out!

I've read Kyle Gann's book about Charles Ives' Concord Sonata.  It's excellent too -- even tho' some of the musicological analysis is over my head.

[Teasing the Korean]

27 minutes ago, JSngry said:

There's a whole book about 4:33, its origins, its formulation, and its aftermath. that is quite illuminating: No Such Thing as Silence: John Cage's 4'33" (Icons of America): Gann, Kyle: 9780300171297: Amazon.com: Books 

Highly recommended.

Bottom line - with 4'33", Cage was very much about everybody paying attention, not just to one thing at a time, but everything all the time.

One of the more penetrating insights from this is that "composition" is essentially an imposed, discovered construct based on the limitations of the hearer. The more open our ears/minds, the more "composition" we "discover" ("discover" being a misnomer, because how do you discover something that's already there?)

It's a bit of vanity, really, to imagine that we "discover" or "create" music. All sound is always there, somewhere, past, present, and future. All we do is process it as we find it. Nothing more than that.

Now, for the sake of reductive conversation, we label certain things "music" because we don't know any different (or jsut don't want to work that hard at any given point). But if something would be considered "just sound" (or even NOISE) in the 18th Century but is accepted as "music here in the 21st, what has changed? The sound itself? I don't think so. It's the individual and collective awareness and acceptance.

So yes - all sound is POTENTIALLY music, and it's not necessarily a "composer" who can make it so. It is ANYBODY'S prerogative and privilege to do so. Ultimately, we are our own composer. "Organization" is what we make it to be. Ot let it to be.

That may or may not be a "rabbit hole", but I've found it to be more of a thought that once engaged cannot be unthought.

Or more to the point - yes, "music" is indeed "organized sound".

But - whose "organization"? What organization? And if we don't sense it, does that mean it's not there?

I always thought it was funny that another composer was sued by the Cage estate for including on an album a track with a title along the lines of "A Moment's Silence." As far as I'm concerned, the title alone differentiates it from Cage's piece, which was not at all about silence, but rather the sounds we hear when we shut up and listen.

[JSngry]

Just now, Teasing the Korean said:

... Cage's piece, which was not at all about silence, but rather the sounds we hear when we shut up and listen.

Bingo.

And what we do with it as we hear it. And even after. Maybe especially after?

[mjazzg]

19 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

 Cage's piece, which was not at all about silence, but rather the sounds we hear when we shut up and listen.

Which becomes absolutely apparent when you hear it performed. I found the first experience very impactful.

51 minutes ago, JSngry said:

There's a whole book about 4:33, its origins, its formulation, and its aftermath. that is quite illuminating: No Such Thing as Silence: John Cage's 4'33" (Icons of America): Gann, Kyle: 9780300171297: Amazon.com: Books 

Highly recommended.

 

To someone with little or no understanding of musical theory?

[HutchFan]

Now spinning:

Jaki Byard - Giant Steps (Prestige, 2 LPs)
Sides 3 & 4 - originally released as Hi-Fly (New Jazz, 1962); with Ron Carter & Pete LaRoca

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

30 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

To someone with little or no understanding of musical theory?

Absolutely! 

[mjazzg]

14 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Absolutely! 

OK,thanks for the recommendation then!

[HutchFan]

Another Byard piano trio:

Jaki Byard - Foolin' Myself (Soul Note, 1989)
with Ralph Hamperian (b) and Richard Allen (d)

 

[Rabshakeh]

7 hours ago, mjazzg said:

My apologies necessary HutchFan! 

I agree completely about subjectivity. I'm interested in the opinions of @soulpopeand @Rabshakehas two board members whose opinions I respect. Their different takes to an album I hold very dear intrigues me and I've just dug it out for another spin with their comments in mind. Nothing whatsoever about attempting alignment of views just want to hear if I hear it differently with other's perspectives in mind 

It won't stop me loving it 😀

And now I find myself agreeing with this too! So now I'm just going to listen to some music whilst watching the World Cup...

My comment on “Spanish civil kitsch” is really a non-musical one, which reflects a personal irritation regarding the way that republican Spanish civil war themes, iconography and slogans continue to appear in modern cultural and political discourse. I think that this is one, very subjective, reason for my not really loving the first record, and preferring the later ones.

The bigger issue for me is that the first record is really a concept album based around brass band interpretations of the songs from the era, interspersed with personal meditations. The treatment seems to move between nostalgic, martial and lachrymose, which is really not to my taste. The tunes are also handled quite directly, save for pauses for contemplative bass solos, or atonal and/or zany breakdowns. I find that I can see a lot of it coming, before it starts, which is not something that I could say for The Magic City or Seasons.

I find that the other two records manage to avoid these traps (which probably only appear to be traps to me - this is all purely subjective). The Spanish Civil War becomes more inspiration and less subject matter, and Carla Bley’s arrangements are much more important. Bley had only gotten better in the intervening time, and I think that is a huge contributor to what I like about albums 2 and 3. I think that Bley also opens the second and third records out to the players, who get to say more interesting things.

Anyway, it is all opinion, and I am aware that many people really love that first record, so I probably am the one who needs to revisit it.

[JSngry]

27 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

 I find that I can see a lot of it coming, before it starts, which is not something that I could say for The Magic City or Seasons.

Here's one I didn't see coming!

 

[HutchFan]

Next up:

Walter Norris / Aladár Pege - Synchronicity (Enja, 1979)
Recorded on May 5, 1978 at the East-West Jazz Festival, Meistersingerhalle, Nürnberg.

Beautiful.

 

[Chuck Nessa]

[Rabshakeh]

2 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

The greatest.

[Gheorghe]

18 hours ago, jazzcorner said:

Good to read that I discovered  the V.S.O.P. very late and missed the studio one. It happens often that the live stuff is more exciting than a studio version and NOT vice versa. Not everything with Hancock is a hit. His fusion things get very seldom a spin.

At many studio recordings "my main problem" is that I don´t hear the drums work completly. I´d have to get very close to the speaker to hear let´s say the ride cymbal. 
On live recordings I usually hear the drums how they would sound live. 

[jazzcorner]

[mjazzg]

12 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

My comment on “Spanish civil kitsch” is really a non-musical one, which reflects a personal irritation regarding the way that republican Spanish civil war themes, iconography and slogans continue to appear in modern cultural and political discourse. I think that this is one, very subjective, reason for my not really loving the first record, and preferring the later ones.

The bigger issue for me is that the first record is really a concept album based around brass band interpretations of the songs from the era, interspersed with personal meditations. The treatment seems to move between nostalgic, martial and lachrymose, which is really not to my taste. The tunes are also handled quite directly, save for pauses for contemplative bass solos, or atonal and/or zany breakdowns. I find that I can see a lot of it coming, before it starts, which is not something that I could say for The Magic City or Seasons.

I find that the other two records manage to avoid these traps (which probably only appear to be traps to me - this is all purely subjective). The Spanish Civil War becomes more inspiration and less subject matter, and Carla Bley’s arrangements are much more important. Bley had only gotten better in the intervening time, and I think that is a huge contributor to what I like about albums 2 and 3. I think that Bley also opens the second and third records out to the players, who get to say more interesting things.

Anyway, it is all opinion, and I am aware that many people really love that first record, so I probably am the one who needs to revisit it.

Thanks for responding, interesting points about the enduring impact of the Spanish Civil War (that would be a great discussion but for elsewhere). The first LMO on Impulse and 'The Ballad Of The Fallen' albums are now 40-50 years old. 

Of the other 3 studio LMO albums only 'Dream Keeper' continues with Spanish Civil War material. The two last don't feature it at all so it looks like Bley/Haden moved on as well after the 1991. 

The 'Montreal Tapes' whilst released in the 90s is an '89 concert and is Spanish influenced.

Time to relisten to all six albums again. Thanks for the prompt.

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, mjazzg said:

Thanks for responding, interesting points about the enduring impact of the Spanish Civil War (that would be a great discussion but for elsewhere). The first LMO on Impulse and 'The Ballad Of The Fallen' albums are now 40-50 years old. 

Of the other 3 studio LMO albums only 'Dream Keeper' continues with Spanish Civil War material. The two last don't feature it at all so it looks like Bley/Haden moved on as well after the 1991. 

The 'Montreal Tapes' whilst released in the 90s is an '89 concert and is Spanish influenced.

Time to relisten to all six albums again. Thanks for the prompt.

Rather embarrassingly, I actually had not realised that there were five. I thought just it was LMO, Ballad and Dream Keeper. That's despite @JSngry's reference about to Not In Our Name.

 

[Pim]

3 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Rather embarrassingly, I actually had not realised that there were five. I thought just it was LMO, Ballad and Dream Keeper. That's despite @JSngry's reference about to Not In Our Name.

 

Yeah, the last one Song for the Whale is the least interesting imo

[mjazzg]

22 minutes ago, Pim said:

Yeah, the last one Song for the Whale is the least interesting imo

Yes, that was a disappointment 

[HutchFan]

Now on my turntable:

U.S. Verve "MPS Series" reissue 

[jazzcorner]

31 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Now on my turntable:

U.S. Verve "MPS Series" reissue 

 

😁👍

Their 3 "a cappella" albums on MPS are great. For the coming time also their version of "Christmas" is suggested. A great 'sound adventure'  is also "Snowfall" bei Manhattan Transfer arranged by Manny Albam.

[mjazzg]

On 11/22/2022 at 1:17 PM, jazzcorner said:

Two really impressive albums

[HutchFan]

3 hours ago, jazzcorner said:

😁👍

Their 3 "a cappella" albums on MPS are great. For the coming time also their version of "Christmas" is suggested. A great 'sound adventure'  is also "Snowfall" bei Manhattan Transfer arranged by Manny Albam.

Yes, I'm enjoying A Capella very much.  It took me a while to hear The Singers Unlimited -- but I think I've finally broken through. ... Your description of their music as a 'sound adventure' is very accurate, I think.  At times, there's something otherworldly -- you might even say uncanny -- about their music.  At first, I missed the nearly-surreal weirdness that's lurking just below the pretty surface.

 

Now playing:

One of my favorite "new-to-me" discoveries of this year.