Rabshakeh Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 50 minutes ago, mjazzg said: Start with a second mortgage if my memory serves me right about vinyl copies of RAU He he he. 43 minutes ago, Gheorghe said: I remember "Impressions" from 1978, that was about the time. But my personal contacts to Fritz Novotny were mostly from 1982-85. I saw the RAU live in 1985 at Hollabrunn Festival. And I heard his tapes mostly at his place, especially the encounter with Burton Green. I don´t remember the place, it was in the fancy first district of Vienna, there were some places where the performed "Alte Schmiede" where I have been, or Café Brückl I think.... The tape with Burton Green was very fine. Burton played Novotny´s Pannonian flower with very much feeling, and then called "Crepuscule with Nellie". It´s 40 years ago and Fritz Novotny died few years ago. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 20 hours ago, corto maltese said: Fair enough, but your initial argument (to which I reacted) was that the FMP "clique" played free, because they didn't have the skills to play ("real") jazz. I don't think any of those musicians ever claimed that they were playing on a higher artistic level than other musicians. Besides, as Clifford rightly points out, many of them were also very skilled in more "classical" jazz (or other music). I wasn't so much thinking of musicians considering free or avantgarde music to be on a higher artistic level (no doubt many of the U.S. ones, in particular, acknowledge what went on before them style-wise) but of many (period and more recent) debates in magazines, radio, among fans, critics, etc. Claims that anything "free" or "avantgarde" was THE ultimate in artistic elevation and advancement in jazz were rampant over here in many (mediatic) circles from the 70s onwards. And once you have been exposed to that to a certain degree that just lingers on ... As for the "initial argument", it was made by Gheorghe, not by me. And if I understood him correctly then "free" players who do not konw their basics in "non-free" jam session contexts just have no point being in those jam sessions. Because for what THAT jam session was all about they just did not have the chops. Which I fully understand and agree with. And I also understand that there are jam sessions where there are strict limits to the kind of "crossover" (or similar) the ones who decided to jam are willing to digest. Which I do not find inappropriate either. To each his own (playing field ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 12 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said: Claims that anything "free" or "avantgarde" was THE ultimate in artistic elevation and advancement in jazz were rampant over here in many (mediatic) circles from the 70s onwards. And once you have been exposed to that to a certain degree that just lingers on ... Do you have any examples? I have an never ending appetite for long dead jazz polemics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) This is going to be difficult. Apart from statements from other jazz fans and experts that I vividly remember, I have long since parted with what copies of "Jazz Podium" (the German jazz magazine) from those years or other music periodicals touching on jazz that I had, and of course I doubt that the radio jazz shows on the German SWF and SDR radio stations (where I remember often hearing jazz experts like Werner Wunderlich in that respect) are still archived anywhere. Maybe all this boils down to what Gheorghe hinted at. Euro-free jazz or avantgarde jazz of the 70s (onwards) really was a very special affair in a corner unto itself, and maybe all that hullaballoo about touting these Euro free jazz artists in the media over here was in part spurred by the fact that a certain breed of German jazz scribes or radio men all went haywire as soon as these Euro-free men (and women) hit the scene. These scribes seemed to have long been bothered by what they considered European jazz artists just "copying" U.S. musicans and styles (an unfair accusation IMO), and now there were those "new" Euro voices - so "this is THE THING", this is what it's all about, this is "THE original European jazz voice", this is "OUR emancipated Gernan jazz ART now" at last ... regardless of whether they retained any ties at all with how jazz had evolved. So they pushed it in many ways, and there were some among them who from that point on considered "non-free" (or even outright tradition-bound, e.g. by referring to the blues) jazz anachronistic or old hat at best. Up to the point of considering artists like Scott Hamilton "reactionary". See what I mean? Edited July 23, 2021 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) As far I remember, was a teenager then, european Free Jazz had a strong political characterization, like everything back then. So Free Jazz was anticapitalist, anticolonialist, anti-borgeois, in one word far far left. As Big Beat Steeve pointed out, every music form was considered "reactionary" in itself, as form was considered the product of capitalist society, a unfair thing. More or less : Musicians of the world, unite, you have not to lose than your chords and scales. Edited July 23, 2021 by porcy62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 Thanks. That's really interesting. As I mentioned in the new Jazz Modernism Outside the Americas thread, I've been surprised at the extent to which even now the historians' version of European jazz really is just the Avant Garde. It's always interesting to hear the other side of the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) You’re welcome. It might be considered that most of the jazz critics were marxist in Europe, so the perspective of scholars were often sociological rather than musical. It considered the history of jazz and black music in general as the struggle and emancipation of black people in a capitalist society. In this way it’s logical that the free movement of the sixties was considered the highest “form” of music. Edited July 23, 2021 by porcy62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) Esquire 10” in great condition. According to the price sticker I paid $9.99 in New Zealand with a $20 discount. If I remember correctly the store also had 2 copies ! Early JR Monterose appearance. Imported by Chappell via Sydney according to back sticker. Repatriated by me ! Edited July 23, 2021 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 Don Rendell/Ian Carr Quintet - Blue Beginnings [Jazz In Britain] Staying in Europe, prompted by the thread elsewhere Jef Gilson - A Gaveau Live [Sam Records, 2020] wondering if I need the studio version too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 Easy one - Yes ! (apologies to your wallet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, sidewinder said: Easy one - Yes ! (apologies to your wallet) Bother! (wallet accepts the apology) They differ sufficiently then? edit to add: Honest Jon's to the rescue! Edited July 23, 2021 by mjazzg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) The studio version has better sound and solos (eg. Shaw) in my opinion. Live version very nice addition. Quite different feel to the two versions. 27 minutes ago, mjazzg said: edit to add: Honest Jon's to the rescue! They should do a T-Shirt with that logo ! Edited July 23, 2021 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, sidewinder said: The studio version has better sound and solos (eg. Shaw) in my opinion. Live version very nice addition. Quite different feel to the two versions. They should do a T-Shirt with that logo ! good to hear about the variation, I love the live version. I'd buy that T-shirt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 8 hours ago, Gheorghe said: I remember "Impressions" from 1978, that was about the time. But my personal contacts to Fritz Novotny were mostly from 1982-85. I saw the RAU live in 1985 at Hollabrunn Festival. And I heard his tapes mostly at his place, especially the encounter with Burton Green. I don´t remember the place, it was in the fancy first district of Vienna, there were some places where the performed "Alte Schmiede" where I have been, or Café Brückl I think.... The tape with Burton Green was very fine. Burton played Novotny´s Pannonian flower with very much feeling, and then called "Crepuscule with Nellie". It´s 40 years ago and Fritz Novotny died few years ago. He also had a weekly radio show presenting avantgarde, stuff like Archie Shepp, Clifford Thornton, Bill Dixon and many others, and his own stuff. It was on Ö1 I think, while the more straight ahead radio-shows "Jazz-Shop (Herwig Wurzer) and "Vokal Instrumental International" (Walter Richard Langer) were on Ö3. Novotny is/was fantastic. I never met him or saw him live, but I have a number of vintage LPs: RAU, Three Motions, and the related outfit Masters of Unorthodox Jazz (which Novotny was not part of, far out stuff) and would love to hear the recording with Greene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 46 minutes ago, sidewinder said: That's a lovely album. Horace Tapscott! 1 hour ago, sidewinder said: The studio version has better sound and solos (eg. Shaw) in my opinion. Live version very nice addition. Quite different feel to the two versions. They should do a T-Shirt with that logo ! good to hear about the variation, I love the live version. I'd buy that T-shirt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 23, 2021 Report Share Posted July 23, 2021 Yeah, ‘stealth’ Horace Tapscott session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 24, 2021 Report Share Posted July 24, 2021 Japanese Progressive issue/Teichiku Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slide_advantage_redoux Posted July 24, 2021 Report Share Posted July 24, 2021 Question: Whenever I try to attach a pic I get messages saying the file is too large. I tried using a file compressing app, but that doesn’t solve the problem. Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 24, 2021 Report Share Posted July 24, 2021 7 minutes ago, slide_advantage_redoux said: Question: Whenever I try to attach a pic I get messages saying the file is too large. I tried using a file compressing app, but that doesn’t solve the problem. Am I missing something? I have only ever 'copy image' from Discogs mostly and just paste. I do come across your problem if I ever try paste a photo from my gallery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted July 24, 2021 Report Share Posted July 24, 2021 24 minutes ago, slide_advantage_redoux said: Question: Whenever I try to attach a pic I get messages saying the file is too large. I tried using a file compressing app, but that doesn’t solve the problem. Am I missing something? I download on my phone and then shrink to 10% with an app called Lightroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HutchFan Posted July 24, 2021 Report Share Posted July 24, 2021 2 hours ago, sidewinder said: Japanese Progressive issue/Teichiku I have that LP too and like it very much. The U.S. release has a different title, This Must Be Love, and different cover image. Same music though. You can hardly go wrong with Sir Roland in the 1970s. He made so many wonderful records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzcorner Posted July 24, 2021 Report Share Posted July 24, 2021 Regina Records R-286 [FSR reissue 1989] - Charlie Mariano " A Jazz Portrait" [compilation] - rec. 1963 - Engineers: Bob Simpson & Ray Hall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HutchFan Posted July 24, 2021 Report Share Posted July 24, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 24, 2021 Report Share Posted July 24, 2021 37 minutes ago, HutchFan said: Oh my...not aware of this one at all...but "Pablo Digital" kinda scares me...they had already gotten into a close-miked thing that might not translate well via earliest digital recording...but Bags & Jaws, maybe just go fix the tone controls on the hi-fi and deal with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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