What vinyl are you spinning right now??

[HutchFan]

1 hour ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

in this house we believe the pre-OJC FCD series Japan-for-US CD is the best cut of this album.  check it out!

Yes, I have that.    Got it based on your recommendation, IIRC.

Not sure which sounds better -- the vinyl release or that CD.  Both are lovely.

 

[mjazzg]

Charles Tyler Ensemble - s/t [ESP-Disk, 1966]

just great

[sidewinder]

Haven’t compared with the sonics on the Jack Johnson CD box but this one sounds really good !

[HutchFan]

A superb LP.  Producer Ozzie Cadena puts Jug in various musical contexts and styles, and they all work.  Jazz, blues, soul, or pop.  It does not matter.  Whatever the label, Ammons LIFTS it up -- and us up!  Like Duke would say, what Jug is doing is "beyond category."

... And a little side note: How about that filthy electric piano from Hank Jones!?!?  Yes sir!  Very, very nice.

 

[Gheorghe]

10 hours ago, sidewinder said:

Haven’t compared with the sonics on the Jack Johnson CD box but this one sounds really good !

I love the Jack Johnson stuff, wonderful music. 
And the cover here is really fitting to the music and the times.

But exactly this cover was on a Prestige Double Album from the late 70´s , which featured the sessions from 1953-54 (you know, cut from the original albums "Miles and Horns" "Walking", "Blue Haze") and then I thought if they were crazy, how can they use for an album of early 50´s Miles a photo of Miles from the 70´s ?????

[sidewinder]

1 hour ago, Gheorghe said:

I love the Jack Johnson stuff, wonderful music. 
And the cover here is really fitting to the music and the times.

But exactly this cover was on a Prestige Double Album from the late 70´s , which featured the sessions from 1953-54 (you know, cut from the original albums "Miles and Horns" "Walking", "Blue Haze") and then I thought if they were crazy, how can they use for an album of early 50´s Miles a photo of Miles from the 70´s ?????

I still have that twofer (‘Tune Up’ I think), bought at the time. Cover a travesty, music great. The photo in B&W works much better on this release. Some good selections here and in v. good, crisp sound, shame it isn’t a double set like last year’s vinyl release though.

8 hours ago, HutchFan said:

 

A superb LP.  Producer Ozzie Cadena puts Jug in various musical contexts and styles, and they all work. 

Ozzie Cadena had an amazing involvement in so many 50s and 60s settings. In his retirement he was organising jazz for Sunday Brunch at the Lighthouse, Hermosa Beach, which is where I got to briefly chat with him in the late 90s. He was very enthusiastic about the music and low profile. Wish I had been more gen’d up and asked him some questions about e.g. how it was like to work for Savoy/Lubinsky and with Teddy Reig !

Edited July 21, 2021 by sidewinder

[porcy62]

 

 

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Continuum - Mad About Tadd (Palo Alto Jazz). Quite a nice date with a killer band, well recorded at the Van Gelder Studio by RVG. Slide Hampton, trombone; Jimmy Heath, saxes; Kenny Barron, piano; Ron Carter, bass; Art Taylor, drums.

[Dub Modal]

10 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

But exactly this cover was on a Prestige Double Album from the late 70´s , which featured the sessions from 1953-54 (you know, cut from the original albums "Miles and Horns" "Walking", "Blue Haze") and then I thought if they were crazy, how can they use for an album of early 50´s Miles a photo of Miles from the 70´s ?????

 

9 hours ago, sidewinder said:

I still have that twofer (‘Tune Up’ I think), bought at the time. Cover a travesty, music great. The photo in B&W works much better on this release.

From my collection. Image fits a Jack Johnson theme since he's in the ring, while the ties to the Prestige material are slim to none. 

[clifford_thornton]

On 7/20/2021 at 6:32 AM, corto maltese said:

It happens all the time and may be difficult to avoid, but it makes little sense to label freely improvised music as "(free) jazz" and then judge it according to criteria specific to "jazz".

Well, every time something bubbles up about free players not being able to play changes or read music, I feel like it has to be trotted out -- like an abstract visual artist has to be Michelangelo in their drawing ability. Sure, some foundation can help, but why do what Michelangelo did? Why play like Bird did, or why sight-read Stravinsky when that's not what your music requires? Or, perhaps a musician can do this but prefers to play free music -- then let them do it. 

A sampling of the musicians on that boxed set, many of whom were excellent readers/composers/players in a wide range of settings: Steve Lacy, Bobby Few, Alexander von Schlippenbach, Paul Rutherford, Misha Mengelberg, Willem Breuker, Irène Schweizer, Vinko Globokar, Albert Mangelsdorff, Fred van Hove, Johnny Dyani... and then there are people like Brötzmann and Frank Wright, Alan Silva, and others, who may not be able to read microscopic fly shit on paper but are tremendous musicians in other ways. 

[Big Beat Steve]

4 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Well, every time something bubbles up about free players not being able to play changes or read music, I feel like it has to be trotted out -- like an abstract visual artist has to be Michelangelo in their drawing ability. Sure, some foundation can help, but why do what Michelangelo did? Why play like Bird did, or why sight-read Stravinsky when that's not what your music requires? Or, perhaps a musician can do this but prefers to play free music -- then let them do it.

I dont' think that not being able to read sheet music is a criterion. Many jazzmen from more "traditional" styles of jazz (a strange term to use for hard bop or post-bop, for example) have never been able to do that either. BUT - as you probably are aware yourself - the comparisons you allude to only exist because there are SO MANY out there in this never-ending debate of the place of free jazz within jazz who INSIST that playing free or free players are on a HIGHER artistic level than all those who are not (and have never been) part of that free (or avantgarde or whatever ...) movement. Which is an argument that would only hold water if they were indeed able to do everything those who came before them in the "non-free" world (which would be on a "lower" artistic level according to their "reasoning") have done and they have exhausted ALL of that and would then go above and beyond that.

But if they are not able to do that then what they do in the "free" or "avantgarde" world may well have its merits but it most certainly is not on a "higher" artistic level. In fact they have not gone higher but sideways in the evolution or development of the music and have just branched out in a different direction. Which is fine if this is what they prefer to do. There are many differnt branches in the evolution of any broader style of music. But they really should not - never ever - claim they are on a "higher" artistic level. Or else their lack of "chops" in the mastery of their instruments, technique, ability to swing outright, knowledge of all the changes, etc., would be very easy to hold against them by the musicians from the non-free realms of jazz who DO have these chops.

Just my 2c but I stand by them.

 

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

On 7/20/2021 at 8:38 AM, HutchFan said:

Yes, I have that.    Got it based on your recommendation, IIRC.

Not sure which sounds better -- the vinyl release or that CD.  Both are lovely.

 

oh rad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! glad you like- its a very scarce cd

[clifford_thornton]

40 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I dont' think that not being able to read sheet music is a criterion. Many jazzmen from more "traditional" styles of jazz (a strange term to use for hard bop or post-bop, for example) have never been able to do that either. BUT - as you probably are aware yourself - the comparisons you allude to only exist because there are SO MANY out there in this never-ending debate of the place of free jazz within jazz who INSIST that playing free or free players are on a HIGHER artistic level than all those who are not (and have never been) part of that free (or avantgarde or whatever ...) movement. Which is an argument that would only hold water if they were indeed able to do everything those who came before them in the "non-free" world (which would be on a "lower" artistic level according to their "reasoning") have done and they have exhausted ALL of that and would then go above and beyond that.

But if they are not able to do that then what they do in the "free" or "avantgarde" world may well have its merits but it most certainly is not on a "higher" artistic level. In fact they have not gone higher but sideways in the evolution or development of the music and have just branched out in a different direction. Which is fine if this is what they prefer to do. There are many differnt branches in the evolution of any broader style of music. But they really should not - never ever - claim they are on a "higher" artistic level. Or else their lack of "chops" in the mastery of their instruments, technique, ability to swing outright, knowledge of all the changes, etc., would be very easy to hold against them by the musicians from the non-free realms of jazz who DO have these chops.

Just my 2c but I stand by them.

 

that's fair -- I am not one of those to insist free players are on a higher level. It's music I love very much but I also love straight ahead jazz, trad, swing, and whatever else. There's room for everybody.

[sidewinder]

Audio from the Les Tomkins archive but Gearbox have done a very fine job of the LP mastering. Mike is too near Ronnie Stephenson’s drums but the music is captured very well indeed, with great ‘punch’ and atmosphere. A winner.

[mjazzg]

20 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

Audio from the Les Tomkins archive but Gearbox have done a very fine job of the LP mastering. Mike is too near Ronnie Stephenson’s drums but the music is captured very well indeed, with great ‘punch’ and atmosphere. A winner.

Missed postie this morning. One to collect tomorrow

[sidewinder]

3 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

Missed postie this morning. One to collect tomorrow

Worth the agro !   Glad I picked this one up, seems to have been a popular RSD issue.

Kirk does a reprise of his hosepipe solo on side 2, as featured on Tubby Hayes ‘Return Visit’. A curate’s egg, perhaps?

Edited July 21, 2021 by sidewinder

[mjazzg]

5 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

Worth the agro !   Glad I picked this one up, seems to have been a popular RSD issue.

Kirk does a reprise of his hosepipe solo on side 2, as featured on Tubby Hayes ‘Return Visit’. A curate’s egg, perhaps?

Need some hosepipe action on this weather!  Thankfully sorting office is only a 10 minute walk. It'll be on the deck by 8.00 for a pre-work spin

from the box set

[mjazzg]

11 hours ago, sidewinder said:

Audio from the Les Tomkins archive but Gearbox have done a very fine job of the LP mastering. Mike is too near Ronnie Stephenson’s drums but the music is captured very well indeed, with great ‘punch’ and atmosphere. A winner.

This now. Sounding very immediate but definitely sitting on the same side of the stage as the drummer

[Pim]

16 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

that's fair -- I am not one of those to insist free players are on a higher level. It's music I love very much but I also love straight ahead jazz, trad, swing, and whatever else. There's room for everybody.

+1. You are describing my thoughts exactly. Bird or Art Tatum blow my mind with their technical skills but I could not care less that Frank Wright did not have those skills. I still love his music anyhow. 

[corto maltese]

21 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I dont' think that not being able to read sheet music is a criterion. Many jazzmen from more "traditional" styles of jazz (a strange term to use for hard bop or post-bop, for example) have never been able to do that either. BUT - as you probably are aware yourself - the comparisons you allude to only exist because there are SO MANY out there in this never-ending debate of the place of free jazz within jazz who INSIST that playing free or free players are on a HIGHER artistic level than all those who are not (and have never been) part of that free (or avantgarde or whatever ...) movement. Which is an argument that would only hold water if they were indeed able to do everything those who came before them in the "non-free" world (which would be on a "lower" artistic level according to their "reasoning") have done and they have exhausted ALL of that and would then go above and beyond that.

But if they are not able to do that then what they do in the "free" or "avantgarde" world may well have its merits but it most certainly is not on a "higher" artistic level. In fact they have not gone higher but sideways in the evolution or development of the music and have just branched out in a different direction. Which is fine if this is what they prefer to do. There are many differnt branches in the evolution of any broader style of music. But they really should not - never ever - claim they are on a "higher" artistic level. Or else their lack of "chops" in the mastery of their instruments, technique, ability to swing outright, knowledge of all the changes, etc., would be very easy to hold against them by the musicians from the non-free realms of jazz who DO have these chops.

Just my 2c but I stand by them.

 

Fair enough, but your initial argument (to which I reacted) was that the FMP "clique" played free, because they didn't have the skills to play ("real") jazz.

I don't think any of those musicians ever claimed that they were playing on a higher artistic level than other musicians. Besides, as Clifford rightly points out, many of them were also very skilled in more "classical" jazz (or other music).

Edited July 22, 2021 by corto maltese

[sidewinder]

Back on deck with this one. As Simon Spillett’s blog points out, there is considerable track overlap with the ‘Impressed 3’ compilation Tony Higgins compiled in the naughties and which wasn’t officially released at the time. So - it sort of sees the light of day.

I am inclined to agree that the large group material is some of the best in this set and is at least a match for anything coming out of the US at the time.

Edited July 23, 2021 by sidewinder

[Gheorghe]

On 21.7.2021 at 7:38 PM, clifford_thornton said:

that's fair -- I am not one of those to insist free players are on a higher level. It's music I love very much but I also love straight ahead jazz, trad, swing, and whatever else. There's room for everybody.

I also love bop, hardbop, modal, free and rock-jazz, so it´s really a large span. 
But the way how I got acquainted to so called "free jazz" or "New Thing" was more in the chronological manner. It was through Mingus´ band from 1964 that I became very very interested in Eric Dolphy and the next thing was to get as much as I could of Ornette Coleman, Don Cherry, Sun Ra, Cecil Taylor, late Coltrane, Archie Shepp, Pharoah Sanders, Albert Ayler etc etc. 
So I think my tastes for Free Jazz and further developements like "Prime Time" is exclusivly based on the american side of it. Though I´m European, I can understand american music better and if I listen to a free playing guy from let´s say those I mentioned, and some others of course, I can hear where they come from, I can hear their story and can dig their music, maybe not every day, but sometimes for an entire week, especially in the colder season, when evenings are long and I can sit down, close my eyes and really LISTEN and figure out what they doin, where they comin from and where they will go further.....

I have really difficulties with European Free Music, at least with very much of it, it doesn´t really touch me and it doesn´t tell me the stories I hear in American Free Jazz. Maybe with one exception, and that would be Austrian Free Music Pioneer Fritz Novotny ("Reform Art Unit"). I was lucky there were periods I saw him almost every day and we discussed music, he explained me what he does, and we´d go to his place, he played "Let´s Freedom Ring", "Old and New Gospels" and other things to show me what music impressed him, and than we´d listen to his latest album "Pannonian Flower", really a master piece, and his encounter with Burton Green.  Well, Pannonian Flower is influenced from places I come from, so I really can dig what he created here....

He even wanted to try me out for his projects, but I had to decline. If I was a horn player maybe I would have found a way into it, but not as a piano player. Anyway, for "New Thing" I prefer it without piano, and Cecil Taylor only with the Unit.......

[Rabshakeh]

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Maybe with one exception, and that would be Austrian Free Music Pioneer Fritz Novotny ("Reform Art Unit")

I actually don't know his music. Other than Pannonian Flower, is there anything you particularly recommend of his or anything by the RAU?

[mjazzg]

23 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I actually don't know his music. Other than Pannonian Flower, is there anything you particularly recommend of his or anything by the RAU?

Start with a second mortgage if my memory serves me right about vinyl copies of RAU

[Gheorghe]

25 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I actually don't know his music. Other than Pannonian Flower, is there anything you particularly recommend of his or anything by the RAU?

I remember "Impressions" from 1978, that was about the time. 
But my personal contacts to Fritz Novotny were mostly from 1982-85.
I saw the RAU live in 1985 at Hollabrunn Festival. 
And I heard his tapes mostly at his place, especially the encounter with Burton Green. I don´t remember the place, it was in the fancy first district of Vienna, there were some places where the performed "Alte Schmiede" where I have been, or Café Brückl I think....
The tape with Burton Green was very fine. Burton played Novotny´s Pannonian flower with very much feeling, and then called "Crepuscule with Nellie". It´s 40 years ago and Fritz Novotny died few years ago. 
He also had a weekly radio show  presenting avantgarde, stuff like Archie Shepp, Clifford Thornton, Bill Dixon and many others, and his own stuff. It was on Ö1 I think, while the more straight ahead radio-shows "Jazz-Shop (Herwig Wurzer) and "Vokal Instrumental International" (Walter Richard Langer)  were on Ö3.