What vinyl are you spinning right now??

[soulpope]

55 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

Never been un-appraised here. Desert Island album for me

Different perception here 🤓 ....

[kh1958]

Herb Ellis, Man with the Guitar (Dot)

[soulpope]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:29 AM, Chuck Nessa said:

A frequent "fall back" lp. Nostalgia lives.

Bringst back memories of an extended reissue which unfortunately didn't materialize .... 

[jazzcorner]

Featuring Hancock / Carter / Shorter / Hubbard & T. Williams

[Gheorghe]

11 hours ago, jazzcorner said:

Featuring Hancock / Carter / Shorter / Hubbard & T. Williams

Yes, this was the first VSOP I had. It was brand new then and I was still at high school and we all the guys who listened to jazz or played jazz loved it and shared it. 
This version of Red Clay is fantastic ! 

[jazzcorner]

5 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Yes, this was the first VSOP I had. It was brand new then and I was still at high school and we all the guys who listened to jazz or played jazz loved it and shared it. 
This version of Red Clay is fantastic ! 

Here are the other 3:

all excellent I do agree to your rating.

[Gheorghe]

Just now, jazzcorner said:

Here are the other 3:

all excellent I do agree to your rating.

I also have the first VSOP where there was a Concert of all the Hancock groups, starting with VSOP, followed by the sextet with Buster William, Billy Hart, , Maupin, Julian Priester and Eddie Henderson and the funk band with Wah Wah Watson. 

The studio album V.S.O.P. was a bit of a disappointment to me. The recording quality, the bass is too loud, and somehow it doesn´t have that fire....the tunes not so exiting...

[jazzcorner]

3 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

I also have the first VSOP where there was a Concert of all the Hancock groups, starting with VSOP, followed by the sextet with Buster William, Billy Hart, , Maupin, Julian Priester and Eddie Henderson and the funk band with Wah Wah Watson. 

The studio album V.S.O.P. was a bit of a disappointment to me. The recording quality, the bass is too loud, and somehow it doesn´t have that fire....the tunes not so exiting...

Good to read that I discovered  the V.S.O.P. very late and missed the studio one. It happens often that the live stuff is more exciting than a studio version and NOT vice versa. Not everything with Hancock is a hit. His fusion things get very seldom a spin.

[Rabshakeh]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:27 PM, soulpope said:

Time for a re-appraisal ....

I actually prefer this one to the original a bit. More Carla; more Don Cherry; less Spanish Civil War kitsch. 

I realise that I'm probably wrong, but that's my very subjective take.

[soulpope]

25 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I actually prefer this one to the original a bit. More Carla; more Don Cherry; less Spanish Civil War kitsch. 

I realise that I'm probably wrong, but that's my very subjective take.

What probably is a more detailed explanation of "re-appraisal" 😉 ....

[JSngry]

35 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I actually prefer this one to the original a bit. More Carla; more Don Cherry; less Spanish Civil War kitsch. 

I realise that I'm probably wrong, but that's my very subjective take.

Each of those records (these two and the ones after) has a different "slant". Same basic flavors though. I'm kind of partial to Not In Our Name, albeit for no particular reason.

 

[mjazzg]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

 less Spanish Civil War kitsch.

Ouch, kitsch really? In what way?

I find the Spanish Civil War elements essential and very moving but maybe that's just me 

43 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Each of those records (these two and the ones after) has a different "slant". Same basic flavors though. I'm kind of partial to Not In Our Name, albeit for no particular reason.

 

I agree about the slant. They very deliberately address issues if the release's time, as per 'Not In Our Name', a definite statement and fine album

1 minute ago, mjazzg said:

Ouch, kitsch really? In what way?

I find the Spanish Civil War elements essential and very moving but maybe that's just me 

I agree about the slant. They very deliberately address issues if the release's time, as per 'Not In Our Name', a definite statement and fine album

In fact didn't Bley or Haden say somewhere that they waited for the times to feel as if they needed another LMO release each time 

[soulpope]

5 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

Ouch, kitsch really? In what way?

I find the Spanish Civil War elements essential and very moving but maybe that's just me 

While having a weak spot for both spanish music and the historical significance of the Civil War, this platter has some borderline moments for overdoing these mattes .... but definitely down to personal taste ....

[mjazzg]

10 minutes ago, soulpope said:

While having a weak spot for both spanish music and the historical significance of the Civil War, this platter has some borderline moments for overdoing these mattes .... but definitely down to personal taste ....

Interesting, which parts?

As an album that addresses the US actions in El Salvador and Nicaragua, using some old Spanish Republican tunes to do so,  I agree it plays them perhaps more straight than on the Impulse issue and therefore is more brass based (almost brass band, as you often find in even the smallest Spanish towns) which moves it off the Jazz spectrum a notch.  

'Ballad....' was one of the very first contemporary Jazz releases I connected with and I did so on an emotional level as well as having great sympathy for the message  Perhaps I need to step back and  have a more objective listen.

The version of 'Silence' is heartbreaking. 

 

[soulpope]

2 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

Interesting, which parts?

As an album that addresses the US actions in El Salvador and Nicaragua, using some old Spanish Republican tunes to do so,  I agree it plays them perhaps more straight than on the Impulse issue and therefore is more brass based (almost brass band, as you often find in even the smallest Spanish towns) which moves it off the Jazz spectrum a notch.  

'Ballad....' was one of the very first contemporary Jazz releases I connected with and I did so on an emotional level as well as having great sympathy for the message  Perhaps I need to step back and  have a more objective listen.

The version of 'Silence' is heartbreaking. 

As mentioned this is "one of the very first contemporary Jazz releases you`ve connected with .... on an emotional level ...." and it has a special place in your heart for sure .... for me it`s different and this is not about parts, but the album as a whole .... but as said, will give it another listen more sooner than later ....

[HutchFan]

18 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

'Ballad....' was one of the very first contemporary Jazz releases I connected with and I did so on an emotional level as well as having great sympathy for the message  Perhaps I need to step back and have a more objective listen.

mjazzg, I would argue that ALL of our experiences of music are subjective experiences!  That's what makes music so powerful and wonderful and unique -- and closer to expressing the ineffable than any other art!

I'm not even familiar with the music being discussed, but I say that your reaction to the music is 100% valid AND soulpope's reaction is 100% valid.  There's no need to try to make them align -- especially if, by doing so, you reduce the scope of music that you enjoy.

OTOH, I think it's a healthy and soul-enlarging process to go the other way around: Striving to hear music that you haven't found your way in to, trying to make sense of music that doesn't "resonate."  Doing that expands the scope of your musical world.

***************

Just re-read what I'd posted and I'll say "Sorry!" if I've butted in on your conversation. Just couldn't resist the opportunity to opine/preach/"ride my hobbyhorse."   

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, HutchFan said:

mjazzg, I would argue that ALL of our experiences of music are subjective experiences! 

Only if "experience" is defined as a reactive act to objective data.

Two people who have different reactions to the same input/data are "experiencing" the same stimuli, but are reacting to it differently. The difference may be as quatifiable as a difference in hearing or even mental capacity, or as impenetrable as some neurological/brain chemical reaction that triggers "memories" or some such.

Increasingly, I find myself hoping that people can separate the objective from the subjective, but that's one hope I'm afraid I'm going to have to abandon.

 

[mjazzg]

7 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

mjazzg, I would argue that ALL of our experiences of music are subjective experiences!  That's what makes music so powerful and wonderful and unique -- and closer to expressing the ineffable than any other art!

I'm not even familiar with the music being discussed, but I say that your reaction to the music is 100% valid AND soulpope's reaction is 100% valid.  There's no need to try to make them align -- especially if, by doing so, you reduce the scope of music that you enjoy.

OTOH, I think it's a healthy and soul-enlarging process to go the other way around: Striving to hear music that you haven't found your way in to, trying to make sense of music that doesn't "resonate."  Doing that expands the scope of your musical world.

***************

Just re-read what I'd posted and I'll say "Sorry!" if I've butted in on your conversation. Just couldn't resist the opportunity to opine/preach/"ride my hobbyhorse."   

 

My apologies necessary HutchFan! 

I agree completely about subjectivity. I'm interested in the opinions of @soulpopeand @Rabshakehas two board members whose opinions I respect. Their different takes to an album I hold very dear intrigues me and I've just dug it out for another spin with their comments in mind. Nothing whatsoever about attempting alignment of views just want to hear if I hear it differently with other's perspectives in mind 

It won't stop me loving it 😀

3 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Only if "experience" is defined as a reactive act to objective data.

Two people who have different reactions to the same input/data are "experiencing" the same stimuli, but are reacting to it differently. The difference may be as quatifiable as a difference in hearing or even mental capacity, or as impenetrable as some neurological/brain chemical reaction that triggers "memories" or some such.

Increasingly, I find myself hoping that people can separate the objective from the subjective, but that's one hope I'm afraid I'm going to have to abandon.

 

And now I find myself agreeing with this too! So now I'm just going to listen to some music whilst watching the World Cup...

[HutchFan]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

Only if "experience" is defined as a reactive act to objective data.

No argument from me there. 

However, I would argue that subjective experience is what makes music meaningful.  The other, objective stuff is only sounds. 

In other words -- from my point of view -- the objective is inseparable from the subjective.  Particularly when we're dealing with a subject like music. 

 

[mjazzg]

17 minutes ago, soulpope said:

As mentioned this is "one of the very first contemporary Jazz releases you`ve connected with .... on an emotional level ...." and it has a special place in your heart for sure .... for me it`s different and this is not about parts, but the album as a whole .... but as said, will give it another listen more sooner than later ....

I will be interested in your thoughts when you do should you wish to share them. Enjoy it!

[soulpope]

9 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

I will be interested in your thoughts when you do should you wish to share them. Enjoy it!

Will do ....

[JSngry]

8 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

The other, objective stuff is only sounds. 

No. There's still architecture, math, acoustic science. That's all a part of "music", and it can quite often enough be quantified.

Same as with any other creation. Do we require a subjective reaction to a written word to catapult it into "thought" from the land of "squiggles on a page". Or verbal communication?

Music is a language.

[HutchFan]

5 minutes ago, JSngry said:

No. There's still architecture, math, acoustic science. That's all a part of "music", and it can quite often enough be quantified.

Same as with any other creation. Do we require a subjective reaction to a written word to catapult it into "thought" from the land of "squiggles on a page". Or verbal communication?

Music is a language.

I don't disagree.  Yes, music is a sort of language with rules or conventions that make it understandable to others. 

But those rules and conventions are meaningless outside of consciousness, a framework that makes them meaningful.  

I would say that music "on the page" -- that is, music apart from human experience -- is just like color in the world of nature.  Without an eyeball and an optic nerve and a brain and a consciousness, color as we commonly think of it doesn't exist.  The human interpretive act is an inseparable part of the equation.  No human being, no color (as we know it).

Of course, color can be expressed by a physicist in terms of a mathematical formula, I suppose.  But how relevant is that when we are looking at a sunset or a painting.  The meaning doesn't come from the math, it comes from our inner experience, the act of perceiving an outer reality.

 

[JSngry]

Well, if you want to go full-on Cage and posit that all sound is music, I'll go there, no problem.

[mjazzg]

So just finished listening to 'Ballad Of The Fallen' and it still stands up as a tremendously powerful statement for me. However, I do hear some 'Spanishness' in a couple of tracks that could be heard as overegging it a bit, especially the flamenco-style guitar solo early in side one. I still think that this is musically also a homage to Spanish marching band music. 

 

On a slight tangent, I only relatively recently heard Pedro Iturralde's 'Flamenco-Jazz' and was instantly struck by how much elements of 'Ballad...' owed to it. Bley and Haden must surely have known the earlier album