Sun Ra & Art Ensemble of Chicago

[.:.impossible]

I will be interested to read George Lewis' perspective on this subject, and I am very much looking forward to digging into the Nessa Art Ensemble box this summer.

To address the original question, I don't think the music sounds at all "the same." I can hear, in both musics, what I am beginning to identify with as Chicago. Aside from territory, there are broader similarities such as the theatre and visual elements of these groups' performances, as well as the search for a music that transcended the jazz of the past by incorporating ideas pre-dating jazz.

There is one more thing that I continue to realize about this music. When I first hear it, it all seems so serious. The more I become familiar with the music, the more I hear a smile and a nod countering that seriousness. There is a duality to both of these groups that I don't quite understand, but it has revealed itself to me.

[Lazaro Vega]

According to Lewis via the excerpt printed in Current Musicology (pg 103), when the post card went out calling for a general meeting to discuss what would eventually become the AACM, trumpeter Philip Cohran was one of the three invitees, the meeting took place at his house, and "Cohran in particular had found sustenance in the work of Sun Ra (and Lewis quotes this from Shapiro 2001), with whom he (Cohran) had performed until Ra's departure for New York in 1961."

Lewis discusses the Art Ensemble's first regular performances at the Theatre du Lucernaire in Montparnasse, Paris, as causing a sensation. "The group's unusual hybrid of energy, multi-instrumentalism, humor, silence, found sounds, and home made instruments -- and most crucially, extended collective improvisation -- proved revelatory to European audiences."

The notions I put forth above, about Roscoe's early influences and where his personal sound might come from, are part of the problem: seeing the narrative from the hero soloist traditional jazz point of view, when this band, perhaps more than another, asserted the group as primary. Which shows me how far backwards the dialogue about music has slipped in the last 24 years (and I along with it). The AACM is so much heavier than people in the world of jazz today realize -- both the organization's history and the great challenging music in that history, and the ideals it embodied in keeping a democratic, multi-voiced group of artists and musicians going in the same general direction: forward. So much of music is commercialized today, that it is no wonder such a noncommercial, artist driven group would find itself on the outs with the critical, industry establishment.

And for those reasons alone this is the group to watch and deal with. Muhal remains a vital, brilliant musician, and it is good to see Braxton getting his music more recorded than he has in years. Hell, it is one of the great jazz stories of our time that Ornette is back out, giving regular concerts since last June. A far bigger story to the music than Wayne's temporary choice to go acoustic again. Or maybe equally important, but Ornette isn't getting his new music recorded and promoted the way Wayne's is and that is just symptomatic of the "jazz business" being too much about business and not enough about jazz, imho.

Peace.

Edited May 16, 2004 by Lazaro Vega

[Alexander Hawkins]

HERE is a brief piece I found concerning the subject matter of this discussion! Seems interesting, if short!

[B. Goren.]

HERE is a brief piece I found concerning the subject matter of this discussion! Seems interesting, if short!

Very interesting Red. Thanks for posting it.

Edited May 20, 2004 by B. Goren.

[blue lake]

That was a very good post.

Reconsidering the notions of Sun Ra and classical music after having heard "The Magic City" again. John Szwed remarks how the ensemble constructs the melodies, that the melodic construction is played piecemeal across the arkestra, rather than taken by a single lead voice or soloist. Perhaps akin in methodology to Webern's arrangement for orchestra of the Grande Fugue .... ???

[Guest ariceffron]

what is that john cage meets sun ra lp like. i heard its just 1/2 sun ra and 1/2 cage and then they only play together a little at the end. who knows about it

[jimi089]

For some people this is a serious question. Personally I think it is easy to over estimate the Ra influence on the AACM guys. Mr Blount left the city about 5 years before the AACM was chartered and most members were too young to have had much meaningful contact with the Arkestra.

I'm sure the forthcoming AACM history by George Lewis will cover this in some detail.

Indeed, almost 3 years later I'm plowing through a copy of Professor Lewis' book and he makes exactly the same point that Mr. Nessa has. The connection is entirely overstated, and Ornette was a bigger influence than Sun Ra. Probably the individual associated with the AACM that Sun Ra impacted the most was Phil Cohran, who left the AACM very early on to forge his own path.

[Chuck Nessa]

Hmmm.

[Debra]

I have listened to a fair amount of both group's recordings, and saw both of them live. I don't see the connection. I wonder if it is wishful thinking.

[robviti]

For some people this is a serious question. Personally I think it is easy to over estimate the Ra influence on the AACM guys. Mr Blount left the city about 5 years before the AACM was chartered and most members were too young to have had much meaningful contact with the Arkestra.

I'm sure the forthcoming AACM history by George Lewis will cover this in some detail.

Indeed, almost 3 years later I'm plowing through a copy of Professor Lewis' book and he makes exactly the same point that Mr. Nessa has. The connection is entirely overstated, and Ornette was a bigger influence than Sun Ra. Probably the individual associated with the AACM that Sun Ra impacted the most was Phil Cohran, who left the AACM very early on to forge his own path.

most sites list lewis's book as being available 5/1/08. did you get an advance copy?

[clifford_thornton]

I'm trying to get one too, for review at AAJ.

Really looking forward to (and almost sweating over) this'n.

I've never been able to make peace with either line of thinking, fwiw.

[clifford_thornton]

what is that john cage meets sun ra lp like. i heard its just 1/2 sun ra and 1/2 cage and then they only play together a little at the end. who knows about it

Never bought it. Always thought it seemed like a stupid idea.

[jimi089]

For some people this is a serious question. Personally I think it is easy to over estimate the Ra influence on the AACM guys. Mr Blount left the city about 5 years before the AACM was chartered and most members were too young to have had much meaningful contact with the Arkestra.

I'm sure the forthcoming AACM history by George Lewis will cover this in some detail.

Indeed, almost 3 years later I'm plowing through a copy of Professor Lewis' book and he makes exactly the same point that Mr. Nessa has. The connection is entirely overstated, and Ornette was a bigger influence than Sun Ra. Probably the individual associated with the AACM that Sun Ra impacted the most was Phil Cohran, who left the AACM very early on to forge his own path.

most sites list lewis's book as being available 5/1/08. did you get an advance copy?

Yes indeed. I know people who know people

At the rate I'm going I should be done by the end of the month. There are sections that read quickly and other parts that are quite dense and academic.

[Debra]

what is that john cage meets sun ra lp like. i heard its just 1/2 sun ra and 1/2 cage and then they only play together a little at the end. who knows about it

I have it. It is rather minimal as to the amount of sound being produced. It is not a rousing, rollicking good timey album, to be sure.

[Chuck Nessa]

I'm trying to get one too, for review at AAJ.

Really looking forward to (and almost sweating over) this'n.

I've never been able to make peace with either line of thinking, fwiw.

I'd love to hear about your internal conflicts and the reasoning behind them.

[johnlitweiler]

For some people this is a serious question. Personally I think it is easy to over estimate the Ra influence on the AACM guys. Mr Blount left the city about 5 years before the AACM was chartered and most members were too young to have had much meaningful contact with the Arkestra.

I'm sure the forthcoming AACM history by George Lewis will cover this in some detail.

Indeed, almost 3 years later I'm plowing through a copy of Professor Lewis' book and he makes exactly the same point that Mr. Nessa has. The connection is entirely overstated, and Ornette was a bigger influence than Sun Ra. Probably the individual associated with the AACM that Sun Ra impacted the most was Phil Cohran, who left the AACM very early on to forge his own path.

George Lewis points out in his book that the influence of Sun Ra on the early AACM was little or none. Listening to the last recordings Ra made before he left Chicago (1960), and Nessa's/Delmark's first AACM recordings (1966-7) confirm this. Phil Cohran expanded on Sun Ra's Afro-centric aspects and Ra's pop-music and modal tendencies, and like Ra, Cohran invented instruments that he played. Cohran also left the AACM after a year or 2: its music was too far out, he thought. Nicole Mitchell used to play with some of Cohran's sidewomen. Mitchell's composing seems sometimes to recall Cohran philosophies (if not his styles) and so, by extension, Sun Ra's, and Mitchell is about 4th generation AACM.

[Chuck Nessa]

John, you need to understand primary sources are never as interesting as after-the-fact theories developed in a vacuum. All kinds of history are being rewritten and the "new truth" prevails.

and I thought my father was demented when he said the end was near.

[Larry Kart]

John, you need to understand primary sources are never as interesting as after-the-fact theories developed in a vacuum. All kinds of history are being rewritten and the "new truth" prevails.

And for those new truths to prevail, all who were there then and remember will be denigrated or dismissed on the basis of their alleged "interests." Report to your local re-education centers; you know who you are.

[tkeith]

They are linked through Chicago. Sun Ra essentially launched avant garde jazz in Chicago, and the AACM picked up the Arkestra's baton.

Thanks John. How could I forget that both groups are from Chicago...

I still have a lot tp learn....

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe you've just sentenced yourself to the listening of the Cosmos Song. Enjoy.

[jostber]

John Corbett says something about that connection here:

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/040429/artensemble.shtml

[Larry Kart]

Corbett quote from the above: "A lot of the Art Ensemble were aware of the Arkestra’s presence and would go watch them play before they left in 1961. Malachi Favors (founding Art Ensemble member) even rehearsed with the Arkestra a couple of times. What’s interesting about that is that Malachi introduced the ‘little instruments’ concept to the Art Ensemble, and it comes from Arkestra. If you listen to the 1958-59 Arkestra recordings, you can hear this. It’s a South Side independent grassroots music thing.”

Actually, that last sentence should read: "It’s a South Side independent grassroots music thing, man.”

[johnlitweiler]

Joseph Jarman also heard the Arkestra rehearse before they left Chicago. Did Mitchell? Bowie and Moye couldn't have back then, though they're both on the much later Sun Ra All-Stars video. "Being aware of" doesn't=influence. Jarman considered Rahsaan Roland Kirk, not Sun Ra, a direct influence on his ideas of sound and multi-instrument playing.

I disagree with John Corbett here. Chuck and/or others, did Malachi Favors perform in public on instruments other than bass and electric bass before he worked in Roscoe Mitchell's 1966 groups?

[JSngry]

Would it be fair to claim, though, that Ra was a cultural influence if not a direct musical one? That the "social climate" in Chicago that fostered the AACM would not have been as it was w/o Ra's various activities throughout the 1950s?

[clifford_thornton]

Jarman considered Rahsaan Roland Kirk, not Sun Ra, a direct influence on his ideas of sound and multi-instrument playing.

I've thought about Kirk w/r/t AEC before also.

[Chuck Nessa]

Jarman considered Rahsaan Roland Kirk, not Sun Ra, a direct influence on his ideas of sound and multi-instrument playing.

I've thought about Kirk w/r/t AEC before also.

Do not confuse Jarman with the AEC in general. He was a component and his influence changed quickly. In the end, I believe Dolphy was a heavier influence on Joseph. The Josephs (there are/were a few of them) are a mildly complicated group from my experience.