Wayne Shorter question

[mikeweil]

I know that Odyssey of Iska and Moto Grosso Feio show the same recording date in the liner, but is this really true? Can anybody verify this from the Blue Note discography? Thanks!

[JohnS]

My copy shows Moto Grosso Feio as April 3, 1970 and August 26, 1970 for Iska.

[JohnS]

Makes sense because of the different line ups I guess.

[mikeweil]

My copy shows Moto Grosso Feio as April 3, 1970 and August 26, 1970 for Iska.

I have the One Way reissue of Moto Grosso Feio which gives August 26, the same date as for Iska. Didn't make sense to me. I had the Blue Note BN-LA issue before with the same later date.

Thanks.

Now: I've read somewhere there is an unissued McCoy Tyner / Wayne Shorter session, and believe it was the same date as one of these? Is this another error or two sessions mixed up?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

The April and August dates are listed in the 2nd edition Blue Note discography.

The rejected Shorter session with Tyner is October 13, 1970.

Mike

[bertrand]

The liner notes to Feio give a clue as to how the recording dates might have gotten mixed up. Supposedly, Blue Note had trouble finding the tape (big surprise) and Wayne remembered it as being recorded the day after his birthday, which would be August 26th. However, Iska was August 26th - I think Wayne remembered recording an album the day after his birthday, but got the two albums mixed up.

Only when Michael Cuscuna got access to the session logs was he able to clear up this mistake. We know that he got the session logs for the Alfred Lion era from Alfred himself, but I'm not sure when he got the post-Lion information - perhaps from the estate of Frank Wolff or Duke Pearson?

Bertrand.

Edited May 11, 2004 by bertrand

[yul]

Just dreaming of a connoisseur:

THE COMPLETE WAYNE SHORTER 1970 BLUE NOTE SESSIONS (2cd)

including the following recordings:

April 3, 1970

MOTO GROSSO FEIO (Blue Note BN LA 014 G)

August 26, 1970

ODYSSEY OF ISKA (Blue Note BST 84363)

October 13, 1970

REJECTED (Blue Note)

--------------------------

A&R Studios, NYC, April 3, 1970

MOTO GROSSO FEIO (Blue Note BN LA 014 G)

Wayne Shorter (ss, ts) Dave Holland (ac-g, B) John McLaughlin (12 string-g) Miroslav Vitous (B) Ron Carter (b, cello) Chick Corea (d, mar, per) Michelin Prell (d, per)

6122 tk.4 Moto Grosso Feio

6123 tk.7 Antiqua

6124 tk.9 Vera Cruz

6125 tk.12 Iska

6126 tk.14 Montezuma

A&R Studios, NYC, August 26, 1970

ODYSSEY OF ISKA (Blue Note BST 84363)

Wayne Shorter (ss, ts) David Friedman (vib, mar) Gene Bertoncini (g) Ron Carter, Cecil McBee (B) Billy Hart, Alphonse Mouzon (d) Frank Cuomo (d, per)

6781 tk.3 Wind

6782 tk.5 Storm

6783 tk.10 Calm

6784 tk.12 De Pois Amour, O Vazio (After Love, Emptiness)

6785 tk.18 Joy

A&R Studios, NYC, October 13, 1970

REJECTED

Wayne Shorter (ts) Barbara Burton (vib, bells, per) McCoy Tyner (p) Miroslav Vitous (B) Alphonse Mouzon (d, per)

tk.3 Pt. 1: The Creation

tk.4 Pt. 2: B. Because

tk.5 Pt. 3: Cee

tk.7 Pt. 4: Dee

tk.8 Pt. 5: Effe

[jazzbo]

I don't think we'll ever hear the rejected session this decade. . . .

[JSngry]

I seem to remember Cuscuna once upon a time mentioning a rejected "Wayne Shorter funk date" that he said was really, REALLY bad. Is this it?

[bertrand]

It was Matt Pierson (sp?) who said this in a Jazz Times interview in which he came off as a complete asshole.

Based on the personnel, song titles (or lack thereof), and recording dates, there is no way in hell that this can be a funk date. It clearly must be along the lines of Super Nova/Odyssey Of Iska/Moto Grosso Feio, and in fact the personnel is basically the first Weather Report group with Tyner in place of Zawinul, and no Airto (Barbara Burton and Don Alias both play on the first WR record, but Zawinul took out their names due to some financial dispute).

My guess is that Pierson was confusing it with Herbie's unissued BN session, which, based on the sole released track on the Lost Sessions, may indeed be a rather lame funk session.

Pierson also called the unissued Lee Morgan session from 1968 a bad funk date. The three issued tracks (on the Sixth Sense) are hardly bad funk.

Either that, or I'm all funked up and don't know what people refer to as 'funk'. Maybe I need a refresher course from George Clinton!

Bertrand.

[Simon Weil]

Well, given Tyner's hatred for electricity ("unnatural") and Vitous not exactly being my choice for funk bassist - it would be either really, REALLY, bad funk or something else again. Tyner and Vitous is kind of an interesting sounding combination (at least in theory).

But Moto Grosso Feio has guys playing outside their boxes.

Simon Weil

[Dr. Rat]

Coincidentally, Larry Kart's review of Iska gets mentioned pretty prominently in an essay on Shorter in the new Atlantic. (not on the web yet)

--eric

[mikeweil]

Thanks for clearing this up! I knew the story from the liner about Shorter reconstructing the date and suspected he mixed something up.

That Tyner session with Shorter rather reads like a mixture of the Extensions LP (which had Shorter and is excellent, IMHO) and the Sahara LP, Tyner's first on Milestone. Maybe this session was one of the kicks leading to Eric Gravatt (who was with Tyner at the time) and Mouzon switching drum chairs - I remember an interview in German Jazz Podium magazine where Shorter stated Jack deJohnette and Eric Gravatt were both interested but had other comittments at the time.

No way this was a funk session - Vitous first electric bass recordings, to my knowledge, were on Weather Report's Sweetnighter and on his second LP as a leader, Purple, for SONY in Japan. I saw the band on a German TV special recorded during their first European tour, with Mouzon still on board, but Dom Um Romao just arrived in lieu of Airto, and Vitous played some electric bass on that show. I'll have to look up wether he played electric on the Japanese Live double LP.

Edited May 11, 2004 by mikeweil

[bertrand]

Mike,

According to this site:

http://www.binkie.net/wrdisc/Sweetnighter.html

Vitous plays electric bass on only two tracks on Sweetnighter; Zawinul hired Andrew White to play on the other cuts because he was funkier. Two tracks feature both bassists.

Eric,

What is the Atlantic? Is this something I can get on newsstands? How long is this article on Wayne?

Thanks,

Bertrand.

Edited May 11, 2004 by bertrand

[rockefeller center]

Vitous can be seen and heard playing upright and electric in 1971:

"Waterfall"

Beat-Club

Bremen, Germany

aired: August 9, 1971

Zawinul, Wayne Shorter, Alphonse Mouzon, Miroslav Vitous, Dom Um Romao on perc.

[Dr. Rat]

Eric,

What is the Atlantic? Is this something I can get on newsstands? How long is this article on Wayne?

Thanks,

Bertrand.

Yeah, you should be able to find it around. Anywhere that carries The New Yorker or Harper's will have it. It's one of the things that's at practically every airport newsstand, say.

It used to be The Atlantic Monthly (Ralph Waldo Emerson was amongst the founders, I think) but now they only publish 10 times a year.

Francis Davis does most of their jazz writing, and does a pretty good job of it IMHO. You can read some archived material of his at Jazz in the Atlantic.

The Shorter article is about 2-3 full magazine pages in length. They may post it to the web in a week or two (but they're getting stingy with what they give away).

[mikeweil]

Vitous can be seen and heard playing upright and electric in 1971:

"Waterfall"

Beat-Club

Bremen, Germany

aired: August 9, 1971

Zawinul, Wayne Shorter, Alphonse Mouzon, Miroslav Vitous, Dom Um Romao on perc.

That's the broadcast I saw!