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Patty, I'm feeling guilty. I've been dismissive of you and you don't deserve it. You certainly can hold your own, so I want to take one more shot at reasoned debate. Last night I read two excellent articles in the Jan./Feb. Atlantic Monthly by James Fallows and Kenneth Pollack re: (respectively) the preparations for PEACE following the Iraq war and the intelligence upon which the decision to go to war was based. Both authors are critical of the Bush administration and I don't agree with their conclusions, but the point I want to make is that neither one of them offered any evidence of LYING. Fallows makes the argument that various agencies of the U.S. government, the military and non-governmental organizations included, recognized the possibility of war well in advance of hostilities and studied and prepared for the aftermath, but that the administration did not implement this planning. I think this is a defensible position. In the matter of intelligence, Pollack presents an insider's (he was an intelligence analyst during the Clinton administration) view of what was known and suspected re: WMD going back to the era preceding the first Gulf War through the inspections in the '90's, the end of inspections in '98, Hans Blix, etc. He states the obvious: EVERYBODY (including the French and the Germans) KNEW that The Sodomizer had them and had used them. The problem was that much of what was known came through the inspections and that the ejection of the inspectors in '98 left a gaping hole in the accumulation of intelligence. Pollack also theorizes that about '96 The Sodomizer changed his strategy of deception to appear that he had COMPLETELY abandoned his WMD when, in fact, his program was largely DORMANT. Remember that The Sodomizer was desperate to get the sanctions from Gulf I lifted, so he was hedging his bets to divide the opposition. The term INTELLIGENCE is misleading. It suggests COMPREHENSION, or COMPLETENESS. Let's just say that some of the pieces to the puzzle were missing. What remained was a very ugly picture. You can't precisely read or predict a person's or a REGIME'S motives or timing, but you can deduce certain things from past behavior. The Bush administration has not wilfully misconstrued the "intelligence," such as it was. They dealt decisively with a THREAT, imminent or not. Here's the part you and so many others refuse to acknowledge: the Iraqi people are free, the Middle East has an opportunity as a whole to move in a more democratic direction, the U.S. and its allies are more secure and there is one less potential sanctuary for Al Qaeda. Be happy! BTW I believe the U.S.'s policy vis a vis the Shiites is that Iraq needs a constitution before elections can be considered legitimate. That may be wrong, I concede, but at least it's rational.

The Groper, Well excuuuuuse me...but please be advised that the relaying of my sexual exploits (the Indians in the hills sing a folk song about them) are not meant for dissertation at the Thursday night PTA meeting. If you're offended..JUMP THREAD!! Patty, Don't take this personal but..I'm sure many here would be interested in how you find any spare time (what with constant posting at this and other sites) for the pursuit of sexual activity. In short: WHEN THE FUCK WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD AN ORGASM *WITH A PARTNER*?? (Inquiring minds....) DEEP Answer to your question, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. And, GROPER, You don't know me, so don't say "women like you" and generalize. There's a reason that four of your five marriages didn't work out and it sure as hell isn't because you understand women, or me. I don't want to "feminize" anyone. On the other hand, I'm clearly a poor judge of character and am foolish enough to think that men and women can be friends.

The Groper, It is not out of the question that someday I may choose to JAM Patty but first two questions remain: 1. When was the last time she had an orgasm with a partner (or has she ever had an orgasm period!!)? 2. Would she be willing to get a digital camera and put her *GOODS ON THE BLOCK* here at ORGASMISSIMO!!? DEEP

DEEP Full disclosure--I did fuck one of my ex-wives the other night. (She was on the way to a rendezvous with some new guy, who turned out to be a bust. I will say in the way of sexual boasts that NONE of my ex's has ever remarried. Interpret that any way you like.) Anyway, I might as well have been at a PTA meeting, hence my (re)confirmed hibernation. The blinding white light of revelation just hit me! DEEP and Patty are meant for each other! The sexual tension is palpable. You go, girl! And let none call it rape.

The Groper, Well excuuuuuse me...but please be advised that the relaying of my sexual exploits (the Indians in the hills sing a folk song about them) are not meant for dissertation at the Thursday night PTA meeting. If you're offended..JUMP THREAD!! Patty, Don't take this personal but..I'm sure many here would be interested in how you find any spare time (what with constant posting at this and other sites) for the pursuit of sexual activity. In short: WHEN THE FUCK WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD AN ORGASM *WITH A PARTNER*?? (Inquiring minds....) DEEP

Re: This Wanton Thread (Thank you, Conn 500) My five wives came in three different races. They were all demanding, but the one who was the least demanding let me do the thinking for both of us. Now Patty, before you launch into one of your tirades against testosterone, think about the concept of marital harmony. How do you achieve that ideal? It's been elusive for me, I admit, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't include the constant impugning of your partner's motives or endless argumentation to score points. It does include finding intimacy through non-verbal cues in the bedroom and all other areas. May I suggest, ever so gently, that you exhibit certain--ahem--male characteristics, combined with your egregious female characteristics. I've met many women like you in this respect. They want to join the boys' club, but then they want to dictate the rules. They want to feminize us. Some guys have been falling for this Trojan horse gambit since "women's lib" propaganda began, but those guys don't seem to realize they are profoundly, DEEPLY, pussy-whipped. I hate to generalize, BUT most of your type are WHITE, IMHO. One of our (read Western Society's) most serious weaknesses is the institution of marriage--now (d)evolved into tiny battles for primacy, i.e conflict vs. harmony. And the CHILDREN be damned. BTW, I did have one good marriage, referred to above, but she died. I mention that just so you don't think I am a misogynist. I love women who love men, not those who want to BE men. Conn500: "flagitious"? Evelyn--WOW! Point taken. DEEP: Your boastful regaling of your exploits is disgusting, puerile, intemperate, condescending and hilarious. HOWEVER--I remain in confirmed hibernation.

PATTY, What can I say?...you had to be there. OH God, What the fuck am I saying?? I will say this, the video wears well with age and.... ...it was (and is) VERY HOT!! DEEP

TOTALLY CONSENSUAL. In fact I did a little advance reconnaissance. In short: I told the cats to wait outside the room while I sounded her about the adventure. Her response was "Sure, what the hell". In fact the next morning, before she had to cut out, she insisted we make a copy of the tape for her. I was even the best man at her wedding to my Army buddy. It was hysterical...after the wedding rehearsal dinner she and I and her husband-to-be all watched the tape when everyone else had gone to bed. I think they took that tape on their honeymoon. Nothin' like a little sinnin' (or a reminder therof) to get the juices flowin'. I wrote a tune for them as a wedding gift. I named it ... ..."OH HOW I'D LIKE TO SEE MY OL' GAL FLO(W) AGAIN". I sang it for them during their bridal dance. Man, was that some inside shit. Ya see, Patty, some people actually like to fuck and don't consider it to be ugly or dirty. You oughtta try it sometime (in between posting that is) and you could be surprised.....YOU MIGHT EVEN ENJOY IT!! Big Wheel, Filipino chicks and Japanese chickies are different breeds. If you value your JOHNSON I recommend you send your Amelda on her marry way and get you a real woman. I never enjoyed sleepin' with one eye open in fear for MY *ONE-EYED PANT WORM*. DEEP

Will have to have DEEP clarify things here. My assumption is that it was consensual. No way I'm supporting any kind of rape, Patty.

Sorry Patty, but this post of yours displays an ignorance as to how the military works. Soldiers are not free to do as you have just described. I only basing my comment on an interview with a soldier who recounted that experience as the one in which he was involved, which has put him on psychiatric discharge. If soldiers are allowed to indiscriminantly kill civilians then they will find themselves locked up in the brig awfully fast. We recognize that mistakes are made, but the military is disciplined; they are trained to be so. It's not a Wild West Show. If you want to see soldiers on the loose at a party, read DEEP's post! So the soldier was lying? I didn't say it was a civilian that the soldier killed. But the vomiting reflex was in response to the gleefully told story of humiliating and violating a woman who was nothing to your thread originator. What was described was not a party. It was a date rape, and a vicious and cowardly way of telling the woman she was an inconvenience. I guess just telling her wouldn't have been nearly as much fun. If that amuses all of you, then I've misjudged all of you. I thought you all were civilized people, but you're not.

Sorry Patty, but this post of yours displays an ignorance as to how the military works. Soldiers are not free to do as you have just described. I only basing my comment on an interview with a soldier who recounted that experience as the one in which he was involved, which has put him on psychiatric discharge. If soldiers are allowed to indiscriminantly kill civilians then they will find themselves locked up in the brig awfully fast. We recognize that mistakes are made, but the military is disciplined; they are trained to be so. It's not a Wild West Show. If you want to see soldiers on the loose at a party, read DEEP's post!

Sorry Patty, but this post of yours displays an ignorance as to how the military works. Soldiers are not free to do as you have just described. I only basing my comment on an interview with a soldier who recounted that experience as the one in which he was involved, which has put him on psychiatric discharge.

Why Patty?

Sorry Patty, but this post of yours displays an ignorance as to how the military works. Soldiers are not free to do as you have just described.

Interesting... Do I like my woman to have opinions.... Truthful answer: on some things, "yes," on other things, "no." Men just like to fight, Patty. That's why they go off to wars. Stick a bunch of M-16s in the hands of young men here in America and they would end up firing at each other. That's the way it works.

PATTY PLEASE... Come back to this thread. I'm surrounded with lechers and lechers-in-hibernation and wannabe-lechers and lechers-on-site-in-Tokyo. Don't leave me here all alone!!

PATTY seems to be posting these long RODOMONTADES and then after reviewing them she deletes them. It would appear that it is, in fact,TOO HOT IN THE KITCHEN. THE GROPER IS A PRETTY TOUGH CUSTOMER. I WOULD IMAGINE HE'S SHUT CHRISTIERN DOWN TOO. DEEP

HERE'S ONE FOR PATTY & CHRISTIERN (CANADA & ICELAND/DENMARK RESPECTIVELY) Remember the guy who got on a plane with a bomb built into his shoe and tried to light it? Did you know his trial is over? Did you know he was sentenced? Did you see/hear any of the judge's comments on TV/Radio? Didn't think so. Everyone should hear what the judge had to say. Judge William Young U.S. District Court. Prior to sentencing, the Judge asked the defendant if he had anything to say. His response: After admitting his guilt to the court for the record, Reid also admitted his "allegiance to Osama bin Laden, to Islam, and to the religion of Allah," defiantly stated "I think I ought not apologize for my actions," and told the court "I am at war with your country." Judge Young then delivered the statement quoted below, a stinging condemnation of Reid in particular and terrorists in general. January 30, 2003 United States vs. Reid. Judge Young: quote-Mr. Richard C. Reid, hearken now to the sentence the Court imposes upon you. On counts 1, 5 and 6 the Court sentences you to life in prison in the custody of the United States Attorney General. On counts 2, 3, 4 and 7, the Court sentences you to 20 years in prison on each count, the sentence on each count to run consecutive with the other. That's 80 years. On count 8 the Court sentences you to the mandatory 30 years consecutive to the 80 years just imposed. The Court imposes upon you each of the eight counts a fine of $250,000 for the aggregate fine of $2 million. The Court accepts the government's recommendation with respect to restitution and orders restitution in the amount of $298.17 to Andre Bousquet and $5,784 to American Airlines. The Court imposes upon you the $800 special assessment. The Court imposes upon you five years supervised release simply because the law requires it. But the life sentences are real life sentences so need go no further. This is the sentence that is provided for by our statutes. It is a fair and just sentence. It is a righteous sentence. Let me explain this to you. We are not afraid of you or any of your terrorist co-conspirators, Mr. Reid. We are Americans. We have been through the fire before. There is all too much war talk here. And I say that to everyone with the utmost respect. Here in this court, where we deal with individuals as individuals, and care for individuals as individuals. As human beings, we reach out for justice. You are not an enemy combatant. You are a terrorist. You are not a soldier in any war. You are a terrorist. To give you that reference, to call you a soldier, gives you far too much stature. Whether it is the officers of government who do it or your attorney who does it, or that happens to be your view, you are a terrorist. And we do not negotiate with terrorists. We do not treat with terrorists. We do not sign documents with terrorists. We hunt them down one by one and bring them to justice. So war talk is way out of line in this court. You are a big fellow. But you are not that big. You're no warrior. I know warriors. You are a terrorist. A species of criminal guilty of multiple attempted murders. In a very real sense, State Trooper Santiago had it right when you first were taken off that plane and into custody and you wondered where the press and where the TV crews were, and he said you're no big deal. You're no big deal. What your counsel, what your able counsel and what the equally able United States attorneys have grappled with and what I have as honestly as I know how tried to grapple with, is why you did something so horrific. What was it that led you here to this courtroom today? I have listened respectfully to what you have to say. And I ask you to search your heart and ask yourself what sort of unfathomable hate led you to do what you are guilty and admit you are guilty of doing. And I have an answer for you. It may not satisfy you. But as I search this entire record, it comes as close to understanding as I know. It seems to me you hate the one thing that is most precious. You hate our freedom. Our individual freedom. Our individual freedom to live as we choose, to come and go as we choose, to believe or not believe as we individually choose. Here, in this society, the very winds carry freedom. They carry it everywhere from sea to shining sea. It is because we prize individual freedom so much that you are here in this beautiful courtroom. So that everyone can see, truly see that justice is administered fairly, individually, and discretely. It is for freedom's sake that your lawyers are striving so vigorously on your behalf and have filed appeals, will go on in their representation of you before other judges. We are about it. Because we all know that the way we treat you, Mr. Reid, is the measure of our own liberties. Make no mistake though. It is yet true that we will bare any burden; pay any price, to preserve our freedoms. Look around this courtroom. Mark it well. The world is not going to long remember what you or I say here. Day after tomorrow it will be forgotten. But this, however, will long endure. Here in this courtroom and courtrooms all across America, the American people will gather to see that justice, individual justice, justice, not war, individual justice is in fact being done. The very President of the United States through his officers will have to come into courtrooms and lay out evidence on which specific matters can be judged, and juries of citizens will gather to sit and judge that evidence democratically, to mold and shape and refine our sense of justice. See that flag, Mr. Reid? That's the flag of the United States of America. That flag will fly there long after this is all forgotten. That flag stands for freedom. You know it always will. Mr. Custody Officer. Stand him down.------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now that is..... DEEP

PATTY, BTW: Nothing is more PRETENTIOUS than someone pointing out their humility (wearing it on their sleeve so to speak). For the deletion of your post containing said transgression...CLASP !!B] DEEP Humility?? What humility?? I forgot where I was. Even I didn't recognize me. I should follow your very wise lead and observe a DRY season. Of course I deleted the post.

I remember this story as well, though I haven't read my two volumes of "Black Jack" by Frank Vandiver. Can't do this stuff anymore, DEEP, though we often yearn for it. We were still an aggressive, male-dominated nation back then. It was both good and bad. Can't have one without the other. DEEP: hope Patty returns to the thread. She provided the straight comments while everyone else threw curveballs. If everyone throws only curveballs, we have no direction!

HERE'S A REAL QUICK FIX TO THOSE MUSLIM COCKSUCKERS: JUST BEFORE WORLD WAR I THERE WERE A NUMBER OF TERROIST ATTACKS ON UNITED STATES FORCES IN THE PHILIPPINES BY MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. GENERAL "BLACKJACK" PERSHING CAPTURED 50 TERRORISTS AND HAD THEM TIED TO POSTS FOR EXECUTION. HE THEN HAD HIS MEN BRING IN TWO PIGS AND SLAUGHTER THEM IN FRONT OF THE NOW HORRIFIED TERRORISTS. MUSLIMS DETEST PORK BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE PIGS ARE FILTHY ANIMALS. SOME OF THEM SIMPLY REFUSE TO EAT IT, WHILE OTHERS WON'T EVEN TOUCH PIGS AT ALL OR ANY OF ITS BI-PRODUCTS. TO THEM, EATING OR TOUCHING A PIG, ITS MEAT, OR BLOOD ETC. IS TO BE FOREVER BARRED FROM PARADISE (AND ALL THOSE VIRGINS) AND DOOMED TO HELL. THE SOLDIERS THEN PROCEEDED TO SOAK THEIR BULLETS IN PIG BLOOD AND COMMENCED TO EXECUTE 49 OF THE TERRORISTS BY FIRING SQUAD. THEY THEN DUG A HOLE AND DUMPED IN THE DEAD BODIES AND COVERED THEM WITH PIG BLOOD, ENTRAILS ETC. THEY LET THE 50TH MAN GO. FOR THE NEXT FORTY-TWO YEARS THERE WAS NOT A SINGLE MUSLIM TERRORIST ATTACK ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. IT'S FUCKING TIME TO REPEAT THIS SEGMENT IN HISTORY, DEFINITELY IN IRAQ AND ANYPLACE ELSE WHERE WE GET THE FUCKING SANDCHUCKS. WE NEED A BLACKJACK PERSHING AND ......KERRY AIN'T NO BLACKJACK...DIG?? OF COURSE CHRITIERN AND PATTY DON'T AGREE WITH THIS. 9/11 WAS JUST A QUIRK OF FATE. DEEP

PATTY, I don't think you get it, honey. I started this thread to get away from all the people who take offense to my vulgarity (kinda like bein' in the back o' the bus). Your posting of all those music trivia/facts invites all my detractors to stop by and be offended. Why don't you talk about music on a music thread? In that way all the DEEP HATERS won't be tempted to fall by here and start puling about my subject matter. For Chrissakes, pretty soon Organissimo is gonna start getting complaints about me and I'm the one who sought assylum in this sanctuary. I'm sure your posts would be appreciated, just NOT HERE. BTW: Nothing is more PRETENTIOUS than someone pointing out their humility (wearing it on their sleeve so to speak). For the deletion of your post containing said transgression...CLASP !!B] Now if you wanna post something interesting, get a digital camera and let's see some ASS!! You certainly are not an "unwelcome intruder", you've just come to a sex orgy dressed in an evening gown...DIG?? GET FUCKING NAKED !! DEEP

PATTY, I have 4 cars; Cadillac, Lincoln Continental, Lumina & a 1929 Model A Ford. I have 4 pianos, Steinway, Yamaha, Wellington & a HINDENBURG (which I never allow near Lakehurst, New Jersey). I have lost track of how many TVs and Stereo systems I have. I have a wife AND a *DIVERTIMENTO* (who lives on the upper East side of Manhattan). I am well over the millionaire status. All of my friends are White as are my elected officials. My teeth are as White as I can get them. Only one of my cars is White. My women are Yellow. My grass is green (the lawn that is) and my smoke is brown. I prefer the company of well-to-do people. They're much more interesting conversationalists (and they don't say "Man" every other word). If that makes me seem pretentious...what the hell...I'M PRETENTIOUS!! I see THE GROPER really took charge while I was away. I agree with a lot of what he has to say but for some reason I get the impression he's not the BRIGHTEST BULB IN THE MARQEE !! DEEP

Oh Patty, no need to get upset at us Americans who have targets on the back of our shirts as far as Middle Eastern extremists are concerned. I mean, we realize that you may not share the same feelings up there in Calgary (is that close to YUKON?? .) We in America have our enemies because we are a big country and we are engaged in the world. The last visitor to your town was--who? Admiral Peary? I mean, come on: easy to take the high approach when you're outside of events like that, and the only crisis might be if the Walrus population got a bit out of hand. Of course, you do have your share of American supporters who hate Bush and feel we have to BACK DOWN to those Mideval Muslim extremists. The GROPER and DEEP are correct: we have to strike back; and we have to hit hard. 9/11 can never be forgotten.

THE GROPER !! Patty, I suggest you stick to your mission of posting every entry from the Encyclopedia of Jazz rather than comment on your "noisy neighbors to the south". If you don't agree then might I suggest you at least put in a concerted effort to...GET LAID !! (God knows you must be about ready to explode...how long has it been now......7 or 8 years?) DEEP