K1969

In his item description the seller says it that the famous Van Gelder Well I'll be da..... You learn something everyday. I guess every one else here knew that already

I'm curious to know what happened and why - could you tell more? thanks, Dante

The only confusion I have is exactly what Lou means by the term "fusion". It's a pretty prosaic term. Does he ever stick his neck out and mention any names? Did he openly criticize Bitches brew or Herbie's Headhunter for example?

Total agreement. IMHO, "Power to the People" is as good anything Joe ever recorded. I agree. There's a lot of the fire of El Barrio / Inner Urge on this LP. Incidentally I love Mike Lawrence's playing too.

Yes, clearly Lou is on the same page as Crouch and Wynton, but, except for this one occasion, just letting his music speak for itself. Lou was, in my view, never a standard kind of Bebopper, in the way Parker was for example. Sure, he learned tons from Parker (and others). But he also learned tons from Benny Carter. And what he got from Carter was elegance and serenity. So I don’t think it’s right to characterise Lou’s criticism of R&B, whatever it was, as being directed against music because it wasn’t complex enough. “Blues walk”, “Groove junction”, “Grits and gravy” complex? Give us a break. Lou’s combination of funk, grease, elegance and serenity is his own. And it’s surely always been aimed at getting the people to have a good time. Oh, and has Chewy got Lou's phone number? MG that figures - very interesting, thanks! I reckon that he didn't actually dislike any particular syle of music per se (his music was always too accessible for snobbery). Rather I 'm speculating that he feels, rightly or wrongly, that some genres had below par musicianship that lacked the "blues cry" or soul. Other than this weak attempt of mine to explain things, I'm struggling to understand how he could uniformly dislike such disparate syles as r&b, fusion and avant garde whilst sitting somewhere in the middle of it all with his own "Grits and Gravy" stock!????

So why this purist, elitist aura around the man? I can understand it coming from Marsalis because it's reflected in his music. But coming from LD, it doesn't seem to make sense. I mean take his LP Cosmos for example. The first track, "the Caterpillar" is a pure pop outing featuring wah wah guitar and female vocalists chanting "Do the caterpillar, it a brand new groove". Now I quite like this kind of thing when i'm in the mood. I just can't couple it with what i read about the man. I think that maybe Dan Gould is onto something when he says that it's not this or that style of music itself that jars with Lou, but the pedigree of the generation of musicians that play it - a musician's elitism rather than a stylist's elitism. Maybe he'd have liked some fusion then, say if Johnny Griffin had replaced Bennie Maupin in Bitches brew and the Head Hunters?? (BTW I LOVE Bennie Maupin) PS anyone got his number?

Maybe I'm naive but I find it hard to believe that that's the whole story - though maybe it's part of it. As Dan intimates, those musicians that made a fast buck in the fusion era usally came back to the fold in the 80s and 90s, debunking thier previous forays into commercialism. But not Lou. I can't believe that in his 80s he's still after a fast buck or doing something that that his heart isn't in.

Hi Everyone! I was reading Bob Porter's sleave notes to Idris Muhammad's Black Rhythm Revolution, and was intrigued by this passage: "One of the most voiciferous critics of R&B was Lou Donaldson. Idris recalls several instances of vitriolic put downs to R&B musicians by Lou. As an example of how quickly things change, shortly after this Idris began working with Lou" What I don't get is how Donaldson, an artist who pioneered the fusion of Jazz with R&B from 1966 onwards, could once have been it's main critic? How can the man who wrote "Everything I do gonna be funky from now on" have been the nemesis of jazz's dalliances with rock and by extension R&B? What made him want to employ Muhammad, then an R&B drummer at Motown who had almost never payed any jazz professionally? Am I missing something? Can anyone shed any light on this? thanks.

Sealed copy for you here. Nice LP worth picking up.

I love his LP on capitol called Energy. The title says it all.

anybody want this beauty? I love the way he sells it.

Didn't know that - wish Ubiquity had reissued this on CD, but it was only reissued on LP! Which tracks is Frazier on and which Earland? MG Acually, I DID know that - but I'd forgotten. Earland is on synth, Frazier on B3. Does Earland get more solo space? MG OEeerrRR woops - what's in God's name did I just press? I'll start again!.... Yeah but the best track is really based upon quick fire call-and-response riffing between the players. There aren't really any proper solos. The overall vibe though is infectious and Frazier's organ sounds sooooo gritty - almost like JB's organ on some King LPs - as he anchors the whole groove whilst earland and co stab in and out with thier riffs. It reminds a bit of some of the tracks off Groove Holmes (only?) blue note LP "Comin on home" with a kind of free for all sparring going on between all the players, a kind of "hanging on the corner" vibe.

Didn't know that - wish Ubiquity had reissued this on CD, but it was only reissued on LP! Which tracks is Frazier on and which Earland? MG Acually, I DID know that - but I'd forgotten. Earland is on synth, Frazier on B3. Does Earland get more solo space? MG Yeah but the best track is really based upon ca

I love the track Mira (similar vibe to BJP's Latona)

I've plugged it before on organissimo but I'll plug it again, if you like funky guitar and organ , a real sleeper if ever there was one is Ivan Boogaloo Joe Jone's last ever LP, the truly wonderful Sweetback. Far better than most of his prestige output yet in the same bag. Reissued by Ubiquity records, but sadly without the original cover: Getting back to Frazier, he also plays on George Freeman's great LP Frantic Diagnosis, but with less solo room on the funkier tracks.

I don't think that anyone disagrees with Chuck's point. It's just that if we need a better system to explain the rules to new comers, whlst wating for that system to be put in place, we should be a bit more accommodating rather than implying that they're lacking in the "smart" department.

Gimme ANY Bob Porter joint, with Idris Muhammad on drums and Mason, Frazier or Spencer on organ. Hicky Burr is SOOOOOO funky. Also people often forget that Grover Washington started out at Prestige. OK so he moved into fusion and smooth jazz (hate that term!) but his stuff on Spencer's LPs Sneak Preview and Louisiana Slim is some of the toughest sax of the era up there with Rusty Bryant and Ammons. Oh and who digs Bill Mason's solo on Fire Eater? Talk about stealing the show. There's a raw directness and honesty about this music that I can't get enough of.

I bought one of his sides and have to agree... I was underwhelmed and never gave it another listen.. I agree but he more than makes up for it on his later (and perhaps last ever) LP The Sweetback. A strange LP in that it sounds even more like prestige than prestige, and comes from 1976 when soul jazz was the least hip thing out and prestige was doing disco funk.

I think that's one of the most insightful statements I've every heard about Patton. You really nailed it in two sentences. Thanks! Another thing about Patton I like was his choice of sidemen. Whether established names like Grant Green, Bobby Hutcherson and Harold Vick or the less well known Jimmy Ponder, Hugh Walker and Harold Alexander, his groups always seemed to gel organically, from the roots up, as if he put a lot of thought into the combined chemistry of each player. (I don't know if he did or not - it's just my impression). When I listen to my favourite Patton LPs, Let 'em roll, That Certain Feeling and Understanding, it's like there's something more going on than simply him "leading" and them "supporting". The lack of "ego" under Patton's stewardship seemed to free the individual players from the usual pressure to prove themselves technically (or to not outshine the leader), with the result that they all seem to explore the music a little deeper together. Some groups thrived on pressure - maybe Miles Bitches Brew group is an example - but I doubt this was the case with Patton. It's be interesting to hear what his sidemen had to say...

Thank you for the warm welcome Ritalin run out this week ? I think I asked a fair question. If I entered a bb called "organissimo" I would spend some time exploring. If not using the search function, I'd at least explore all the various topics and sub-threads. Sorry if I bent your corner. To be frank, your elitist attitude is very depressing and this will be my last post here! I take care of my father 18 hours a day who is in hospice with cancer and dont have the time to explore right now. And they wonder why jazz is a dying artform! Hey hang around, don't go! Speaking for myself I apprecaite any number of Patton threads. I started a thread on Eric Kloss once when there was already a thread existing that I hadn't yet seen. One guy just kindly replied giving me the link to the thread. End of story. It was a fair point, politely made, whereas Chucks was a fair point badly made. I searched about and excluding this thread there are loads of other Patton threads that may interest you. Several are by resident Patton fan Soul Stream: the Patton Corner John Patton's Hammond B3 and John Patton's "Oh Baby", what a great record Plus loads more: John Patton CD alert!!!!! Big John Patton JRVGs John Patton Mosaic Select Big John Patton, Why no hits? Put on John Patton's "Boogaloo" right now John Patton Wikipedia article needs our help. Big John: accent on the blues Happy Birthday Big John Patton, would have been 71 today and ....... ....sod this I'm giving up, the list seems endless!! I hardly think that with that many Patton threads, another one is going to matter that much. Any one want to start a thread called "Can we have too many Patton threads?" ...... er I for one don't think so

Just to hop in here.... I'm pretty biased, but I don't think Big John ever made a bad recording. All his solo releases are worth having for sure. Of those that are currently in print, Let Em Roll and Got A Good Thing Goin' are going to be great to add to your collection. Start there and I think you'll be wanting more soon.... Just won Let 'em Roll on ebay. Crazy price but it was a promo mono copy still in the baggy. (yeah I'm bragging) Couldn't resist!!! One of those LP's I'm prepared to mortgage the house for, primarily for the excessively joyous track Latona. It's one of those pieces that just makes you grin like a kid. I got into Patton long after getting into organ jazz from the groove-funk side of things. Unlike the Jimmy Smith stylists, I never get bored of his style. Not flashy. Kind of meandering, thinking out loud, but in a nice spontaneous way. He's unique cos he's quite introspective without being afraid to get down and dirty - makes the groove much more interesting.

Good point. I've heard of other artists making cutting edge music whilst in prison. There's a guy called Ike White who made a great soul LP in 1976 with Stevie Wonder's help whilst incarcerated at Tehachapi State Prison in CA. The was a group called "Power of Attorney" consisting of a bunch of inmates that cut a now sought after jazz funk LP whilst together in prison - check out the back cover photo in their prison uniforms - I wonder how many cigarettes the last guy had to give for the bow tie?! On the other side of the law, Jimmy Mc Griff made a few live LPs from prisons. I guess it's possible to say that spending time, or spending time with people spending time, kept a lot of the music at the cutting edge. It might also go to explain why, upon leaving jail in 1969, Jug took to the RnB funk influence like a fish to water, whereas the "new thing" to him was completely, well, new. I doubt there were a lot of people getting down to Albert Ayler on the inside.

Not really, but that just places it in the prestige tradition in those days of having 1-2 overtly funky tracks per LP. There are other RnB/Jazz moments like his cover of "Son of a preacher man" but nothing with the punch of Jungle Strut. If you like Jungle strut you'll love "Jug eyes" from the Black Cat LP. I love all of that "sell-out" shit as they used to call it. Have you checked out the sides by Rusty Bryant from the same period? Fire Eater is amazing.

Actually his first LP after prison, The boss is back, had the track "The Jungle Boss" which was slightly funky, but his next Bother Jug had the REALLY funky track "Jungle Strut" - maybe you're thinking of that one? Any way the sleeve notes for these LP's and his third one The black Cat all talk about his experiences in jail and are very interesting as a result. On the The boss is back he talks about the "new thing" in jazz that had started up during his time inside: "There have been a lot of changes in this world since I went in. It's like day and night. These changes have struck music too. dudes are trying new directions and i dig it. But the avant garde wouldn't fit my bag. I might try a free lick here and there, but I'll stick mostly to the Gene Amons I know" For me what's interesing is what he doesn't talk about when got out in 1969 - ie the by then huge influence of rock, R&B and funk on jazz. He bascially sat out the whole rock and funk revolution in a prison cell and comes out and notices Ornette Coleman and Coltrane! Maybe this is because the funked up, JB-influenced jazz of the late 60s and early 70s wasn't so alien for the great soul jazz and hard bop musicians like Ammons as it might seem from looking back from our stand point. Ammons always played the popular hits and rhythms of the day and it was like a natural transition from Swing to Be Bop to Hard bop and then to Funk. All these movements were just the dance beat of their time. When I listen to Ammons on "Jungle Strut" with Bernard Purdie on drums, or on his great track "Jug Eyes" with Idris Muhammad, the match seems perfect and totally natural. So I don't think it was that hard for him to get back into the contemporary groove. Also having Bob Porter, the "god father of acid jazz" as his new producer must have helped tons.

too right!