Big Beat Steve

Coming back to your original question, Victor: I do remember Buddy Stewart (and have some of his recordings on various LPs too), though he was dead a good many years by the time I was born (so I would qualify as being far too young too ) - BUT: That question in your first post is impossible to answer as long as nobody knows what exactly you've got on that home-burnt CD you say you've got. I've noticed vocals by him cropping up on LP (re)issues of airshots by name bands here and there, but if nobody knows what gaps you need to have filled, where do we start?

Charles Delaunay compiled his New Hot Discography in the late 30s, reedited it in the 40s, then (in the 50s) various Brits and Americans tried an update but only ever got through the first third of the alphabet, in the meantime Jörgen Grunnet JEPSEN did a labour of love with his post-1942 discography in the 60s and eventuall had A to Z completed, at the same time Brian Rust did a comprehensive discography of jazz recordings up to 1942, and a lot of work and time went into all these as it's a job that is virtually never finished, and then (70s/80s) Walter BRUYNINCKX combined everything first into books, then onto CD, adding a lot of his own work, (and then there was Erik Raben - I think Chris A will be able to tell more about that) and then LORD (Tom) came along, and as for what he did and how this is seen by the discphile fraternity, do a search on this forum and read for yourself ... ;) But there are enough of these discographies around for somebody to look up the info (sorry, hope I'll remember to have a closer look tonight at home).

Sorry, was kind of busy those last evenings, but will write down what's in the discographies ASAP. (BTW, anybody else around here and reading this got a Bruyninckx or Lord discography handy to give Chewy the lowdown on this?)

You are right about the Crown reissues of the Moderns, of course. As for the recording dates: Like I said - the dates I gave are those listed by Jepsen and Bruyninckx. But if there is CONCLUSIVE proof that these are wrong (including the one for CLP-5012) then I'm fine with that. Maybe CROWN label collector nuts (they DO exist) will know for sure but OTOH they usually concentrate on the R&B releases on Crown/Modern and tend to bypass the jazz stuff.

Will check my Bruyninckx tonight.

Actually that story was circulated often - with the spelling being AIMEE CAMUS and some French links in her genealogy. Sorry to say this but somehow I am inclined to agree there is some truth in there, with this "ancient inca heritage" being a giant put-on and/or a clever marketing gag on the part of the producers and wishful thinking on the part of the fans.

Actually it's NOT the first WCJ octet LP by black people because it's by a NONET, at least on some tracks (it's Red Callender + 8! :D) And it's not the "first WCJ LP" by black people either because Red Callender's "Speaks Low" LP on Crown 5012 predated this one. And it depends on what you call WCJ anyway. Black West Coast "Central Avenue" jazzmen recorded long before that. Red Callender himself recorded with an octet for Victor in 1952 (though on 78s). AND that Swingin Suite is not necessarily from the end of 1955 either. Both Jepsen and Bruyninckx list Crown 5025 (Swingin Suite) as being recorded in Oct./Nov. 1956, and 5012 (Speaks Low) in 1954. Or has anybody got conclusive proof that these dates are wrong? But even if the 1955 date indicated by Chas were correct then Frank Morgan's debut LP (GNP 12, rec. on Jan. 29 and March 31, 1955) would still predate it, and with its septet lineup it's not far from being an octet either.

A couple of other items from his Decca period that are worth checking out are concert recordings below. Hamp & Co. stretch out in these live recordings so they provide a nice contrast to the very condensed, intense 78 rpm-length studio recordings by his regular big band: Gene Norman's Just Jazz concert (Pasadena, Calif., Aug. 4, 1947) - reissued often, e.g. as "the legendary Stardust concert", etc. Carnegie All-American Award Concert (April 15, 1945)

Yes, a good recommendation, especially as it will not overlap with other reissue programs (that usually go by label). I hadn't thought of those as (except for the material of about one EP) I have all the original 10 and 12in LPs. In the same vein, the mid-50s European STUDIO recordings are also worth exploring. The Hamp recorded a LOt in France, for example, but some of these might be harder to track down (beyond the 2 CDs in the "Jazz in Paris" series).

If you want to go the vinyl route, YES! Those 1941-50 Decca recordings have been out countless times, incuding in two long-lasting series - on German MCA as well as on French/U.S. MCA in their "Jazz Heritage" series. Each one of those series ran to a total of 7 or 8 LP's that included all the commercially released recordings (including some previously unissued tracks in the German series). Those albums should still be around fairly cheaply in secondhand bins (yes I know these bins are getting rare too) or the usual internet sources. As for the 50s recordings beyond Verve, I'd recommend the live recordings from the "Olympia" in Paris (also repackaged and reissued countless times), the album from the 1953 European tour on IAJRC and of course his early 50s MGM recordings. Other goodies are that album with c. 1949 tracks on the Alamac lable (including a very young Wes Montgomery in the lineup) and those Jubilee broadcasts from the 40s (some of them are on an album titled "The Mess Is Here" on some U.K. label - First Heard, maybe?). Another fun album from the mid-50s is "Hamp In The Old World" where he jazzes up a dozen European traditional folk tunes. Don't know if and where this has been reissued, though. Actually there's an awful lot of releases/reissues from that era (a lot of them got frequent spins here too recently) but I will have to check tonight at home as I really can't remember all the label details here right now. More later, therefore.

This thread and the other guitar recommendation thread running concurrently made me pull out that Al Haig/Jimmy Raney "Stirings Attached" album on Choice (rec. 1974) again. While I have a fair number of Jimmy Raney's 50s recordings (along with those by numerous other 50s jazz guitar greats), somehow I talways shied away from buying much more recent (well, relatively recent by now) albums, and listening to this one reminded me why: While the piano/guitar interplay is fine, I somehow cannot manage to "listen through" those bass lines (Jamil Nasser in this case). Somehow all that droning, resonating busybody bass style on those 70s non-horn small-group jazz recordings really gets in the way of the other instruments IMHO (this album is not the only one where this bugs me). Maybe I'm just too much tuned to 50s-style jazz bass playing or maybe all that busybody, every-man-for-himself-because-I-am-a-soloist-at-all-times-too attitude among bassists was just a sign of the (70s) times but it does bug me. The pulse and foundation of the music just seems to go missing at times. A real pity for on some tracks it tends to crowd out Jimmy Raney's and Al Haig's playing here. Just my 2c ...

Well, I'm not Allen (even when I replied to you ), and yes, this is the book, and Lubinsky is the cigar-munching character.

Lubinsky interests me quite a lot, but I've read little about him. Where did you get your info from Allen? MG Whenever Savoy and Lubinsky are mentioned (mags, liner notes, books), the bottom line always is the same. Also, there is a pretty comprehensive chapter on the man in a book called "Newark Nightlife" dealing with black/jazz/jazz-related entertainment in the Newark area from the beginning up to the 50s. Fascinating reading and yours for the taking (and shelling out the bucks) on Amazon. Also, there is a bio/memoirs by Teddy Reig. I haven't been able to obtain it (yet) but I guess he'd have a handful to say about Lubinsky too.

Predictable ... Another quote from some other music source mentioning Savoy and Lubinsky that immediately comes to mind is "a legendary cheapskate" But at least he outrecorded and outlived others in the same position who probably weren't any better (e.g. John Dolphin).

Most BG discographies ought to have it. I remember Bruyninckx' general jazz discopgraphy covers them (at least whatever had been reissued for non-V-Disc use by the time the discopgraphy was compiled).

Since the "Jazz In Paris" CD series and the name of René Thomas came up: I'll second the mention of Sachs Distel's 2-CD set ad well as Rene Thomas' releases (Meeting Mister Thomas & The Real Cat). And then there's another one graced with reissues in that series who's not to be overloked: HENRI CROLLA! Some of this treatments of standards, in particular, may be a bit florid for hard-hitting hard boppers, but there are a lot of gems in there, particularly on his "Notre ami Django" CD.

Agree on both counts. Beyond that, TAL FARLOW just can't do wrong with me (either the recordings under his own name or his 50s work with Red Norvo). Some often-overlooked items from roughly the same period: Hank Garland - "Jazz Winds From a New Direction" Chuck Wayne - "Tasty Pudding", and "String Fever" Jimmy Raney - Visits Paris

Unless you automatically place a (monetary) premium on the fact that that particular record you are coveting is necessarily one that might actually have been in the grubby hands of some record wheeling and dealing pimp in, say, 1958 - regardless of whether the original mastering or pressing quality on that 1958 "original" was in fact inferior to a slightly later pressing of, say, 1963 or 1965 or whenever. :D I can very well imagine cases like those described by Chuck Nessa (and can think of a few, though not BN's) so I sort of understand his common-sense stance on this. Collecting is fine (aren't we all collectors of sorts) and invariably goes with a fair bit of fetichism and searches for holy grails once you've gotten into it beyond certain limits, but you CAN overdo it, you know, especially if all of you "first pressing collectors" work yourselves into a frenzy that turns more and more aspects of that kind of collecting into a sort of "self-fulfilling prophecy".

With "tipped-in" I take it that you all mean "glued in" (along one side of the pic)? Not that this would have struck me as anything that special; this technique was quite current in Europe in the 50s/early 60s when it came to using color pics in books. That aside, this Esquire book is a nice one, though I admit I find the graphism not that striking. Somehow I am not a fan of the design of exactly those times. But I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Speaking of beautiful (and huge-format) jazz books, has "Jazz in L.A." featuring the photographs of BOB WILLOUGHBY (published by Nieswand in the early 90s) been given adequate mention here yet?

100% I've never been able to figure out what this silly Obi strip collecting fetichism is all about. Those darn things get in your way, they were only left on the records sold in our hemisphere because the jap pressings were in shrinkwrap (with the Obis inside) anyhow, and whatever they say refers to Japanese marketing on their home market only and was obsolete by the time you bought the records anyhow. So what then?? I only kept a scant few Obis that included thumbnail miniature images of other covers from the same series, just for the sake of documenting those images. But largely they went into the bin. As for missing Obis decreasing the value of a record in the minds of some, sorry, but this is SICK!

If what I've read about Herman Lubinsky is anything to go by, then "nuts" isn't the worst or oddest label you could have tagged on him. I guess it took a fair degree of nutsiness in those days to run an operation like one of those indie labels. :D

Very good point, Larry. 1951 still WAS a time when the indies in the "niche" markets ruled big and scared the wits out of the majors whenever it came to up-and-coming trends for the youngsters. And some of the best years (up to the advent and establishment of rock'n'roll from, say, 1954) were still to come for the indies. Lubinsky wasn't dumb. And as for that organ thing, that statement really has to be seen in the light of the times (1951). And besides, no matter how big Milt Buckner was (or was to become) by many a yardstick, his attempts at grabbing a bite of the pop market were sort of disappointing. I for one find his (c.1955?) Capitol album "Rocking with Milt" and that companion album pretty tame (despite the promising title). O.K. enough bit it did NOT rock.

Now that's a reed section I would like to hear, are these recordings easy to find? Currently available through Worlds Records. Q This EUropean tour was a LENGHTY one. There's a lot of vinyl from the concerts of that tour around, e.g. the Berlin concert (incuding on the First Heard label from Britain and some other British vinyl label as well as on a twofer from Stan's own Creative World label). Should be available fairly cheaply in the usual secondhand bins (wherever those still exist, of course ). The music from that tour is particularly interesting to hear if you read the writeups in the period jazz mags at the same time. Highly enlightening! :D

I think it's funny. It's things like this that add the spice to history.

Probably quite different by comparison to others' experiences (I've never been one for huge concerts that are potentially loud just by looking at the lineup on the poster), but the loudest concert I remember and still ENJOYED (I may have forgotten others that were loud but not all that enjoyable for their loudness) was DICK DALE playing a gig at full steam in a relatively small cellar club in my town (c. 1997). Turning your surf guitar way up AND then adding some (maybe to connect to those Indian tribal spirits he was into?? ) sure was quite a handful to digest in such a relatively small setting. I've been to other enjoyable concerts that left my ears ringing afterwards but the way I remember it this was in a decibel class of its own ...