Big Beat Steve

Went to a local vinyl clearance sale today and among a huge stack of jazz LPs and EPs by sheer coincidence also I picked up a 45 with another instrumental version of "Madison Time" recorded by one "Eddy Williams" on the Philips label. The flipside has a track called "Madison Beat" with calls (with a typical dance school teacher's voice) in GERMAN! Boy, you ain't heard nothing corny about The Madison until you've heard THIS!! :excited:

E.g. the vinyl albums from the RCA "Black and White" series (released in the 70s/80s) that might/should still be around in 2nd hand record bins (wherever you still have these ).

@Hardbopjazz and your change of the title of this topic: Aren't you being a bit rash about this?? These reissues may be non-interesting to you BN freaks/geeks out there who pride themselves on having first pressings of the entire 1500/4000 and possibly 5000 series of BN's on their shelves and who do nothing but drool about ears in wax, markings, addresses on covers, hues of blue on labels, etc. but believe it or not - there ARE others out there with other priorities and other focuses (including the fact there is a LOT of jazz beyond Hard Bop and Blue Note to listen to) and who might welcome the idea of adding a few vinyl items of decent pressing quality (and who DON'T buy the idea of despising any pressings all the way from the Liberty era on up to the present as being unworthy of keeping and listening to , etc.). Besides, the price I've seen aint that bad for a vinyl PLUS a CD copy of those sets (for those who want that combination) - though I've a hunch by the time these offers reach European shores/retail outlets they will be far less attractively priced ... In short, to each his own, but no reason for excessive snobbery ...

Well, you only can agree with everything that's been said here, but leaving the sales blurb aside, it IS nice to have some of those items widely available in vinyl again. I know I'd been looking around for a vinyl copy of "Song For My Father" (I admit I AM a vinyl nut) for quite some time but to no avail, at least not within the price bracket I was willing to shell out for a secondhand reissue. Not only Liberty and Japan pressings but also other later reissues seemed to command (relatively speaking) top bucks so I'd passed them up and finally bought a CD from the BN offerings at Zweitausendeins. But it STILL isn't the same thing.

That alone would leave room for at least 2 issues as DB was published every 2 weeks, not monthly. For those who want to know really exactly and if everything else fails, a good idea for checking would be to observe Ebay. Old DB issues come up fairly frequently, and if the subject of the blindfold test is not listed in the item description it might be readable on the pic of the cover that usually goes with the description. So watch those 1958 issues coming up for auction! I can also check my copies of the Swedish jazz mag ESTRAD later on. They ran blindfold tests taken from Downbeats, and it just might be that the Miles test is among the 1958/59 issues that I have. Update: Just checked my Sept. 58 copy of ESTRAD which has the Miles blindfold test. However, the tests published in that mag must have been abridged slightly. No reference at all to that character in Miles' comments on that Tiny Grimes track.- Apparently too exotic and unknown to be understood by Swedish readers. Sorry - therefore I can't give the actual quote.

Now that's strange ... I'm far too you young to have witnessed that Madison dance being danced but based on writeups of the early 60s pop/dance craze scene I was aware of its existence (before my time) for almost as long as I've been collecting records (i.e. since 1975/76). And in fact I did pick up TWO different period pressings (with pic covers) of Ray Bryant's 2-part Madison 45 at local fleamarkets/garage sales (and have seen more copies) so it must have been sort of a hit tune over here (not all of those copies can have been dumped by G.I.'s, especially as they were German/European pressings). And as another indicator of the hit status of this dance, there were a couple of other Madison tunes recorded by local artists to capitalize on the fad (I remember a "Madison Time" version from Italy sung in atrocious English but still fun to listen to ). Now could Europe really have been hipper than the U.S. outside of Baltimore, I wonder?

Read his autobiography "Good Vibes" and you will easily see where that exuberance comes from! (BTW, isn't there a story around that on crosscountry one-nighter tours, when Shorty Rogers wanted to call home he had Terry Gibbs make the calls because Terry would be able to get everything across that Shorty would have wanted to say but in about one tenth of the time it would have taken Shorty? Saved quite a bundle on those long-distance calls! ) As for the Dream Band, I have the two commercially released albums back then plus the Vol.1 and 2 LPs of the Wally Heider material first released in the 80s. They were comparatively expensive when I bought them secondhand in the 90s but I will definitely have to get the other volumes too.

Sounds very interesting! Got any more detailed info? (Website, buying sources, ISBN, etc.) I guess if I can work my way through 30-odd years of Orkester Journalen and 25 years of Estrad as well as through "Gata Regerings 74" and "Göteborgsjazz" I should be able to cope sufficiently with Danish too. Mange tak! As for your Buddy Stewart list, I think you've got the ground covered pretty well with what's around. Will check and compare with what else might be buried among airshot recordings, though.

Coming back to your original question, Victor: I do remember Buddy Stewart (and have some of his recordings on various LPs too), though he was dead a good many years by the time I was born (so I would qualify as being far too young too ) - BUT: That question in your first post is impossible to answer as long as nobody knows what exactly you've got on that home-burnt CD you say you've got. I've noticed vocals by him cropping up on LP (re)issues of airshots by name bands here and there, but if nobody knows what gaps you need to have filled, where do we start?

Charles Delaunay compiled his New Hot Discography in the late 30s, reedited it in the 40s, then (in the 50s) various Brits and Americans tried an update but only ever got through the first third of the alphabet, in the meantime Jörgen Grunnet JEPSEN did a labour of love with his post-1942 discography in the 60s and eventuall had A to Z completed, at the same time Brian Rust did a comprehensive discography of jazz recordings up to 1942, and a lot of work and time went into all these as it's a job that is virtually never finished, and then (70s/80s) Walter BRUYNINCKX combined everything first into books, then onto CD, adding a lot of his own work, (and then there was Erik Raben - I think Chris A will be able to tell more about that) and then LORD (Tom) came along, and as for what he did and how this is seen by the discphile fraternity, do a search on this forum and read for yourself ... ;) But there are enough of these discographies around for somebody to look up the info (sorry, hope I'll remember to have a closer look tonight at home).

Sorry, was kind of busy those last evenings, but will write down what's in the discographies ASAP. (BTW, anybody else around here and reading this got a Bruyninckx or Lord discography handy to give Chewy the lowdown on this?)

You are right about the Crown reissues of the Moderns, of course. As for the recording dates: Like I said - the dates I gave are those listed by Jepsen and Bruyninckx. But if there is CONCLUSIVE proof that these are wrong (including the one for CLP-5012) then I'm fine with that. Maybe CROWN label collector nuts (they DO exist) will know for sure but OTOH they usually concentrate on the R&B releases on Crown/Modern and tend to bypass the jazz stuff.

Will check my Bruyninckx tonight.

Actually that story was circulated often - with the spelling being AIMEE CAMUS and some French links in her genealogy. Sorry to say this but somehow I am inclined to agree there is some truth in there, with this "ancient inca heritage" being a giant put-on and/or a clever marketing gag on the part of the producers and wishful thinking on the part of the fans.

Actually it's NOT the first WCJ octet LP by black people because it's by a NONET, at least on some tracks (it's Red Callender + 8! :D) And it's not the "first WCJ LP" by black people either because Red Callender's "Speaks Low" LP on Crown 5012 predated this one. And it depends on what you call WCJ anyway. Black West Coast "Central Avenue" jazzmen recorded long before that. Red Callender himself recorded with an octet for Victor in 1952 (though on 78s). AND that Swingin Suite is not necessarily from the end of 1955 either. Both Jepsen and Bruyninckx list Crown 5025 (Swingin Suite) as being recorded in Oct./Nov. 1956, and 5012 (Speaks Low) in 1954. Or has anybody got conclusive proof that these dates are wrong? But even if the 1955 date indicated by Chas were correct then Frank Morgan's debut LP (GNP 12, rec. on Jan. 29 and March 31, 1955) would still predate it, and with its septet lineup it's not far from being an octet either.

A couple of other items from his Decca period that are worth checking out are concert recordings below. Hamp & Co. stretch out in these live recordings so they provide a nice contrast to the very condensed, intense 78 rpm-length studio recordings by his regular big band: Gene Norman's Just Jazz concert (Pasadena, Calif., Aug. 4, 1947) - reissued often, e.g. as "the legendary Stardust concert", etc. Carnegie All-American Award Concert (April 15, 1945)

Yes, a good recommendation, especially as it will not overlap with other reissue programs (that usually go by label). I hadn't thought of those as (except for the material of about one EP) I have all the original 10 and 12in LPs. In the same vein, the mid-50s European STUDIO recordings are also worth exploring. The Hamp recorded a LOt in France, for example, but some of these might be harder to track down (beyond the 2 CDs in the "Jazz in Paris" series).

If you want to go the vinyl route, YES! Those 1941-50 Decca recordings have been out countless times, incuding in two long-lasting series - on German MCA as well as on French/U.S. MCA in their "Jazz Heritage" series. Each one of those series ran to a total of 7 or 8 LP's that included all the commercially released recordings (including some previously unissued tracks in the German series). Those albums should still be around fairly cheaply in secondhand bins (yes I know these bins are getting rare too) or the usual internet sources. As for the 50s recordings beyond Verve, I'd recommend the live recordings from the "Olympia" in Paris (also repackaged and reissued countless times), the album from the 1953 European tour on IAJRC and of course his early 50s MGM recordings. Other goodies are that album with c. 1949 tracks on the Alamac lable (including a very young Wes Montgomery in the lineup) and those Jubilee broadcasts from the 40s (some of them are on an album titled "The Mess Is Here" on some U.K. label - First Heard, maybe?). Another fun album from the mid-50s is "Hamp In The Old World" where he jazzes up a dozen European traditional folk tunes. Don't know if and where this has been reissued, though. Actually there's an awful lot of releases/reissues from that era (a lot of them got frequent spins here too recently) but I will have to check tonight at home as I really can't remember all the label details here right now. More later, therefore.

This thread and the other guitar recommendation thread running concurrently made me pull out that Al Haig/Jimmy Raney "Stirings Attached" album on Choice (rec. 1974) again. While I have a fair number of Jimmy Raney's 50s recordings (along with those by numerous other 50s jazz guitar greats), somehow I talways shied away from buying much more recent (well, relatively recent by now) albums, and listening to this one reminded me why: While the piano/guitar interplay is fine, I somehow cannot manage to "listen through" those bass lines (Jamil Nasser in this case). Somehow all that droning, resonating busybody bass style on those 70s non-horn small-group jazz recordings really gets in the way of the other instruments IMHO (this album is not the only one where this bugs me). Maybe I'm just too much tuned to 50s-style jazz bass playing or maybe all that busybody, every-man-for-himself-because-I-am-a-soloist-at-all-times-too attitude among bassists was just a sign of the (70s) times but it does bug me. The pulse and foundation of the music just seems to go missing at times. A real pity for on some tracks it tends to crowd out Jimmy Raney's and Al Haig's playing here. Just my 2c ...

Well, I'm not Allen (even when I replied to you ), and yes, this is the book, and Lubinsky is the cigar-munching character.

Lubinsky interests me quite a lot, but I've read little about him. Where did you get your info from Allen? MG Whenever Savoy and Lubinsky are mentioned (mags, liner notes, books), the bottom line always is the same. Also, there is a pretty comprehensive chapter on the man in a book called "Newark Nightlife" dealing with black/jazz/jazz-related entertainment in the Newark area from the beginning up to the 50s. Fascinating reading and yours for the taking (and shelling out the bucks) on Amazon. Also, there is a bio/memoirs by Teddy Reig. I haven't been able to obtain it (yet) but I guess he'd have a handful to say about Lubinsky too.

Predictable ... Another quote from some other music source mentioning Savoy and Lubinsky that immediately comes to mind is "a legendary cheapskate" But at least he outrecorded and outlived others in the same position who probably weren't any better (e.g. John Dolphin).

Most BG discographies ought to have it. I remember Bruyninckx' general jazz discopgraphy covers them (at least whatever had been reissued for non-V-Disc use by the time the discopgraphy was compiled).

Since the "Jazz In Paris" CD series and the name of René Thomas came up: I'll second the mention of Sachs Distel's 2-CD set ad well as Rene Thomas' releases (Meeting Mister Thomas & The Real Cat). And then there's another one graced with reissues in that series who's not to be overloked: HENRI CROLLA! Some of this treatments of standards, in particular, may be a bit florid for hard-hitting hard boppers, but there are a lot of gems in there, particularly on his "Notre ami Django" CD.

Agree on both counts. Beyond that, TAL FARLOW just can't do wrong with me (either the recordings under his own name or his 50s work with Red Norvo). Some often-overlooked items from roughly the same period: Hank Garland - "Jazz Winds From a New Direction" Chuck Wayne - "Tasty Pudding", and "String Fever" Jimmy Raney - Visits Paris