Big Beat Steve

Speaking of Steve Lacy, his early recordings on Jaguar with the Dick Sutton band (reissued as "The Complete Jaguar Sessions") just left me speechless when I first heard them (after having bought the twofer on a whim as I figured that combination MUST be interesting). Probably some of the strangest "free Dixieland" ever made (but very accessible and enjoyable, and the soprano sax sound is just perfect for that combination).

I'd be pleased to (for a couple of other Jazz Oracle reissues too) but can ANYBODY tell me why their Dutch distributor, TIMELESS Records steadfastly refuses to acknowledge, let alone answer my mails inquiring about shipping costs? And this even after sending several mails? (They are closest to Germany among all non-US distributors, hence my inquiry with them) Has anybody had any dealings with them?

Go visit him on AAJ (or has he departed there too?) :D

That recent thread about "Moten Swing" prompted me to give Terry Gibbs' version issued on his "Lauching A New Band" LP released on Mercury in 1959 a listen again. I have the Trip Jazz TLP 5545 reissue of that album. Putting Side 1 of the record on, something odd I had not really noticed before (or forgotten) became evident (had not listened to it for a long while; and if so, only Side 2 for his excellent version of "Jumping At The Woodside"): Instead of the 6 tracks starting with "Opus 1" that are supposed to be there, Side 1 of that particular reissue inlcudes only 3 lengthy tracks by a trumpet-led quintet recorded live at some club. The first track is "Caravan" (NOT the Brown/Geller All Stars version also reissued on Trip) and then 2 ballads (the first one of which is an oft-reorded standard but I just cannot put the finger on the title right now). I have no idea if the entire pressing run of this reissue has this fault but is there anybody who has this reissue and noticed the same discrepancy and is anybody who's heard this able to identify the actual recordings on Side 1? I have a suspicion but the discographies do not bear this out so I am sort of stuck ... Thanks!

Well, Gents, if you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the existence of that "Memorial" CD on Fresh Sound you will of course deprive yourselves of that session - because it's on that very CD! I've listened to the entire CD once again last night, and as somebody said before me, her playing is very agreeably swinging all the way through, and not feminine at all. In a way she has a somewhat harder touch than her West Coast surroundings might imply; the Feather "Encyclopedia" where Bud Powell and and Horace Silver are cited as her influences is quite correct. BTW; as for the Dot label, I'd be interested in finding a source for an affordable reissue of Eddie Costa's "House of Blue Lights" LP too. (Or do I have to check the Fresh Sound catalog closer? )

What do you expect? Tal "evolving" in the sense of turning out glib, soft pop/funk pap like Messrs. Montgomery/Green/Benson? :D For somebody who'd been virtually off the scene for over 10 years his "Return" album certainly showed he still had his chops totally intact, and the same goes for what I've heard of his Concords. No mean feat if you consider the high level he had achieved in the 50s. (P.S. I prefer the Verves etc. from the 50s too)

No doubt about that. I read it with great interest and anticipation and more or less in one go, but as I advanced the urge to ask the author "Now where's the MUSIC in the book?" became stronger and stronger. It could have been a great book (and it partially still is) but all that "second-wave" ideology is pointless the way it is presented here. Wonder when another "second wave feminist" reading this is going to accuse us all of male chauvinism?

That band is given some coverage in the "Swing Shift" book mentioned above but unfortunately that band remained unrecorded. It operated in the 40s. This link might also provide some basic info on all-girl bands: http://nfo.net/usa/females.html

Yes of course ... a doubt may remain and nobody can really prove it either way. Though I think Sonny Berman is not the ideal example of a similar case. I remember having read countless accounts (many of them fairly old) where he was named as one of the typical and more tragic examples of somebody dying from drug abuse among the young jazzmen of that era. So what happened seems to have been a fairly open secret. (Now how did Tiny Kahn actually die? After all he certainly was "heavy set at a young age" too. Terry Gibbs talked about him in his autobiogpraphy but I don't remember the details.) Anyway ... what happened did happen and does not detract from the music.

So it was. And this seems to be the most detailed account of her pasing that's ever been published in any easily accessible source. Other sources just speak of heart problems. And I cannot imagine a huge, decade-long cover-up has been at work here. So no need to pin every early death of a jazzperson of those times down to drugs. (But wasn't it the music that was to be focus of this thread? )

Only if you think you have to adopt someone else's position on this artist and make it your own. Otherwise, enjoy (or don't enjoy) him on your own terms and let somebody else be less enthusiastic about him on that somebody's terms. Not everybody in the history of jazz makes groundbeaking or trailblazing music all the time and yet he can be enjoyed on his very own terms and YET people can exchange views about it. And nothing else is going on here, I think (or is anybody proselytizing for or against S.H. here? ) Reading this again I see Dan Gould's latest post and find I actually am saying the same thing. So I tend to agree with Dan. There is no universal truth in individual assessments like this. Even if the common consensus were that this artist is overrated, in the end it boils down to personal taste and to the eternal question of what one wants to see in the music involved.

Yes indeed! I forgot about these (especially the two Jam Session versions). And the Jay McShann All Stars version of 1972 (feat. Buddy Tate and Julian Dash) isn't bad either.

Yes, I think I see what you mean and coming to think of it, some articles in "Jazz Monthly" of those years (late 50s) that I've read might be interpreted that way. But of course the "other side" sometimes made it VERY easy for them too to adopt that attitude. All this babble about the "angry young men" of jazz that occurred at the same time etc. ... Which reminds me of a rather caustic article on those allegedly oh so angry young men that appeared in "Orkester Journalen" and stressed the fact that Sonny Rollins, then touted as one of THE angry young jazzers was actually a soft-spoken, thoughtful and introspective (but certainly not angry) person once you made an effort to talk to him (backstage or otherwise). Anyway ... "middle jazz" really seems to describe that music better, and isn't it so that the musician who sailed under that "Mainstream" tag in the 2nd half of the 50s and thereafter were not really crusaders for a return to any "golden age of jazz" and did not seriously wage any war against hard bop etc. either and that any confrontation was more of a writers' stunt? I mean, we are not talking about the 40s situation here. So far, so good ... must acquaint myself more with Scott Hamilton now to follow the rest of your debate better ...

Sorry for chiming in kind of late in this debate, but aren't you putting a bit too much emphasis on (actual or imaginary) artistic jugdments about a superiority that allegedly "mainstream" jazz set out to establish? If you reread period articles about what became to be known as "mainstream" jazz you will very often find the term "middle jazz". This term may have fallen into disuse since but isnt' this what "mainstream" (or "middle jazz", for that matter) is all about? A stream of jazz that is somewhere in the middle between 50s/early 60s modern jazz and Dixielandish revivalist jazz (THIS is where true revivalism was and is)? I.e. nothing more than updated swing music. It is true that the British jazz publicists who coined the term felt that many Swing-era masters were unfairly overlooked by the mid-50s (small wonder ...) but yours is just about the first major statement that I see where the protagonists of "mainstream" are accused of denigrating Modern Jazz (and its outgrowths) as being a "wrong path". So is or was there ever really this confrontation in mainstream jazz that actually existed in the "Moldy figs" debate of a decade before? After all, there have always been "mainstream" artists who have been more on the "Modern Jazz" end of "mainstream" and those who have been on the "swing" end of "mainstream.

It may be frowned upon by some, but in this case you will have to give a listen to the "Lorrain Geller Memorial" CD on Fresh Sound which fills a few gaps very nicely, and the booklet also sums up her life, career and tragic death.

That must have been Andy Kirk's 12 Clouds of Joy. "Moten Swing" is one of those tunes that are "catchy" with me too. So I can second not only the votes for the original version but also for Bob Brookmeyer's K.C. Revisited version. And there are many more interesting ones ...

Tal is as good as ever so this would be reason enough for jazz guitar fanatics to get the record, but personally I find the accompaniment a bit too busy; on some tracks the piano and bass player seem to be saying "Hey, we're here too" too much. But that's just my personal impression.

But maybe beyond the financial means of some, and beyond the limit of those who are not completists.

You didn't ask me but anyway ... if you enjoyed that Blue Note 5042 then check out all of his 50s Verve albums. You can't go wrong with any of them; I have most of them (except 1 or 2); "The Swinging Guitar of Tal Farlow" and "Tal" are maybe my favorites but I really cannot see any major quality differences between them. So it all depends on availability, and basically any of them would be a good starter into his Verve period. His "Fuerst Set" and "Second Set" albums issued on Xanadu (private jam session recordings from late 1956 where he really stretches out) are particularly good, too.

As always ... listen for yourselves and then draw your own conclusions as to whether the music meets your tastes or not. In the case of Pell's 50s recordings, IMO some of it is OK and enjoyable, some isn't (see above). Gioia's and Gordon's books are fine and while I generally find it interesting what they included, the exclusion is only of limited concern to me (incidentally, Gordon's quote of the "seemingly endless series of albums" rather seems to refer to Pell's 60s albums which are not what we are talking about here). Besides, if history books of that music are what counts to you, those interested in the subject might also read up on Pell in Alain Tercinet's WEST COAST JAZZ book (Editions Parentheses, 1986) (where Pell is given a bit more coverage), but of course you would have to be able to read French. At any rate, the fact that the book is not accessible to English-only readers does not make it any less relevant per se. Generally, I do not necessarily take all the judgments that scribes (especially period scribes) make on controversial topics and musicians (e.g. West Coast Jazz, as is was a favorite pastime of quite a few writers to blast WCJ indiscriminately) at face value but use them more as a rough guide. In this particular case, for example, the abovementioned Lennie Niehaus and John Graas (the latter, in particular) often fare rather badly in period comments on WCJ, too. Graas, in particular, is also often accused of pretentiousness, affectation, gimmickery, etc. Clearly a case of scribes coming from a different direction of jazz (or already being all-out hard-blowing East Coast jazz partisans?) and unable or unwilling to digest the music on its own terms. So where would you be if you had read those comments on Graas before listening to the music? In short, if you still feel like it, try his "Pell Of A Time" and "Irving Berlin" albums if you can grab them at a price that suits you and you'll have a sampling that should fit in well in any WCJ collection. As for his later works, his "Prez Conference" band from the late 70s is fairly listenable too. Sort of alternate Supersax ...

Well, I for one do like West Coast Jazz a lot so obviously I have my share of Dave Pell discs (thanks, Fresh Sound et al.!). However, though basically West Coast artists get a sort of advance credit with me I find Dave Pell a mixed bag, of sorts ... And though I am NOT impressed by usual period scribes who felt like they needed to put down WCJ at all times, occasionally I have to agree with their reservations when it comes to Dave Pell. My personal favorites are his "songbook" albums on the Kapp label (the "Burke & Van Heusen" and "Irving Berlin" albums; there also is a "Rodgers & Hrt" album which I do not have, though). Cool, breezy, relaxed, easily swinging arrangements that at their best portray the freshness and "summer" atmosphere of WCJ very nicely. The Dave Pell Octet's "A Pell Of A Time" on RCA is also worth exploring if you are after that certain "West Coast Jazz feel". I am less impressed by his "Campus Hop/Jazz Goes Dancing" on RCA which, as the title suggests, really is too commercial for my taste. A dance band affair à la the less adventurious Ray Anthony items of that time ... And most of the "Love Story" album on Atlantic is just not my cup of tea. One or two tracks are intriguing but as for the rest, it's one of those albums where I can see why period jazz writers complained that WCJ just was too gutless, to nice, too bland.

Including that 50s Brother Matthew thing on ABC Paramount? The Down Beat Review of it was .... eh .... candid.

Let's say Hamp's vocals on the Victor sessions were some kind of gimmick, not more. Don't take them too seriously. And there aren't all that many of them on those sessions. Vocals on novelties like "Ring Dem Bells" are quite amusing, and even when he appears a bit more serious about them (e.g. on "Sweethearts on Parade"), I find them rather unobtrusive. MUCH more unobtrusive and more swinging than the vocal dross that populated so many big band recordings of the same period.

Sidewinder, if you feel you cannot resist the urge to get the box set and want to part with your Barclay 2LP set I'd be glad to take this off your hands. I am sure I'lll be content with the material on that vinyl (you can't be a completist all the time), and as mentioned on another thread, back then I bought those sessions on some kind of a bizarre issue - Vol. 2 and 3 as INDIVIDUAL LP's on Blue Star/Barclay (Spanish pressing). It wasn't until much later I discovered the French pressing had Vol. 1 and 2 on a 2LP set, but as the Spanish pressing (same jackets, just liner notes in Spanish) will probably be inexistent anywhere outside Spain (I bought mine while on holiday there) I'll likely have to settle for the 2 LP set in order to get my hands on Vol. 1.

Uh oh ... all this DOES sound dramatic, at least to the unsuspecting collector who just appreciates some good music in his vinyl grooves. (and yes, I admit quite a few JA LP's are among my personal favorites of reissues from that era).