Big Beat Steve

Boy, do I feel like a fossil around here for clinging to all my vinyl with their (mostly) clearly readable spines! :D Anyway, the space-saving factor is tempting for CDs, but I'd definitely not go for plastic sleeves nor for slimline cases. Having to "guess" where a particular disc is in an alphabetical order is bad enough already for my 700+ 78s! And where would I put the booklets?

Well, it did happen to me a bit more often that I'd care for that I've bought albums only to find out later that I already had the music (in rare cases exactly the same album but mostly in cases where exactly the same music had been issued or reissued on various labels with totally different cover artwork). Usually happened to me when I was perusing the stock in a record shop in some place far away from home. As it usually concerned fairly affordable secondhand items in doubt I've come to take the plunge and grab it (because if you find out later you passed up an item of interest that you thought you had but later found out you did not have after all you'll be sorry forever ). Over the years I've been able to shift most of those doubles through the usual channels, though (and make good price-wise).

If you have a fairly wide range of musical genres to accommodate and if you own a sizable number of Various Artist compilations, the alphabetic method rapidly reaches its limits of total impracticality. I've therefore arranged my LP collection (which still is about 90% vinyl, rest CDs) by musical styles, even within jazz. I.e. inside the jazz segment (broadly two thirds of my collection), pre-swing "Oldtime" jazz, Swing and post-WWII Modern Jazz all have separate fields organized A to Z by the leader's name. V.A. albums are a bit more complicated and are arranged roughly by album feature (i.e. instruments or styles), big bands vs. small groups, particular reissue series, specific sub-areas (e.g. all Territory band albums are grouped together, all Westcoast Jazz albums too, etc.). European jazz has a shelf section of its own and is broken down by country and then again A to Z and then in an analog manner for the V.A. albums. Of course this produces overlaps and sometimes I do have to search a while for a particular V.A. album as it might fit in several categories. And sometimes it does occur that I just cannot immediately recall the name of a semi-obscure band leader the album of which Id like to give a spin. And occasionally a disc misplaced inside a jacket or jewel case does require some searching. But a total loss of a platter? Not so far, happily. So it seems like this comparatively detailed organization of my 6000+ discs (not counting 45s and 78s) does pay ...

Isn't that obvious, Ted? Being located at the source and able to amass huuuuge quantities of disks for (next to) nothing is one thing and is of course nice (and those who can do so are welcome to their collections, and I certainly would not want to slight their interest in the music), but building a collection by purchasing the items (new or secondhand, full price, collector's price or special offer/clearout bin) one by one is quite a different feat, and I think that's what Marcello was getting at.

Agreed. (No, I'm not one of them - still more than 50% to go to reach that figure )

How come it's taken so long for his BACK COUNTRY SUITE (and closely related Prestige material) to be mentioned? I remember how Mose Allison really struck me right between the ears with the very first recording of his I ever heard on radio in the mid- to late 70s ("Parchman Farm" - in jazz show, of course). This happened not long ago after I had got my hands on an LP by the Nashville Teens that included THEIR (60s Brit beat) version of "Parchman Farm" (and introduced me to that tune). Mose Allison's had a recognizable familiarity yet was strikingly different: WTF was this: Deep-down blues singing to a modern jazz piano combo backing?? That settled Mose Allison for me as somebody who defied usual stylistic boundaries. Haven't gone far his Prestige period but have enjoyed this immensely. He is one of those whose records I'd spin indiscriminately, regardless of whether I'm in a "modern jazz" or "blues/R&B" listening mood.

Really sad - I had hopes of catching him live once more when he'd play in the area. But now it's over. R.I.P.

In the context of THIS debate, when I said "later" I meant "post-1950", i.e. the Fifties. Raeburn and Thornhill would fall into the 40s, of course. But then again I think you would then have to subdivide those post-WWII big bands again according to whether the "modernist" sounds of those bands lean more towards bebop or whether they might rather be considered part of the "progressive" school. Or to put it another way, if the starting point is Benny Goodman's boppish 1948-49 big band then Raeburn, Thornhill, etc. are a lot farther away from that kind of big band than, say, Artie Shaw's 1949 band or the "modernist" Buddy Rich or Gene Krupa bands (or even the early-post war bop bands of Billy Eckstine and Gerald Wilson).

If you want to have a real look at the transitional 40s era then I'd advise to steer waaaaay clear of those "recreations". Many are just marketing gags that owe their existence to the hi-fi obsession of the 50s. At any rate, reissues of Gene Krupa 40s big band studio and airshots do exist so there is little need to go for "ersatz". And, Niko, IMHO those Ralph Burns records are indeed a bit late and a different evolutionary step that is quite a bit removed from the BG/Shaw swing-cum-bop big band sounds of the 40s. Not that later "advanced" big bands would be without interest, but the interesting thing about those transitional years is listening to the music in its actual period context.

Agreed about Artie Shaw, and don't forget about the Charlie Barnet band either. In the case of Artie Shaw, the 1949 Thesaurus transcriptions are nice items a bit off the beaten track. The CD in the Amazon review seems to complement previously issued material although I have a doubt if those claims of "previously unreleased" can be totally true if A.S. recorded a total of 35 such transcriptions (as the review says) but those 1949 Thesaurus transcriptions have previously already been issued on THREE LPs on the Solid Sender label (and possibly elsewhere). For a time the post-war Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey big bands also made some nice "swing with bop ovetones" (with JD featuring young Maynard Ferguson, for example). Same for the late 40s big band of Buddy Rich. However, in order to recommend where to go next, where exactly is it that you want to go? Swing big bands really embracing the "new sounds" (in which case Woody Herman or unknowns such as the bands of Earle Spencer or Tom Talbert would be obvious choices) or big bands steering a middle course of "bopped-up swing arrangements" - or even small bands of the late 40s that are somewhere in between the clear-cut stylistic areas of swing, bebop, etc.?

Don't get stuck in the rut of studio recordings. That "Hucklebuck" thing is lame, for sure, but IMO that's not because of the swing vs bop controversy but clearly because here a long-established swing band leader had to get in on the act of covering a current hit (that he probably hated) popularized by up-and-coming R&B bands that blew those sedate big band sections off their stools. Paul Williams and Roy Milton, etc., had it going with that tune, Benny hadn't, and Wardell could not save things alone. Must have been a tough time for those big bandsmen having to play the game of those young turks not only of bebop but also of R&B ... But live recordings, airshots, etc. do seem to be quite a different matter. There seem to be quite a few of them out there, and do have their moments, lots of them. Those featuring Stan Hasselgard and Wardell Gray (issued on Hep and Dragon LPs and elsewhere since) with Benny's boppish band are gems, and there are others. By coincidence an LP titled "Benny in Hollywood Vol. 2" on the (shady?) Swing Treasury label got a spin on my turntable yesterday. Nice stuff from Benny's bop period (some boppish, some less so, but always entertaining, so I'd love to find Vol. 1 in one of those secondhand bins eventually). And there have been a couple more "collector's label" LPs with airshots from that period.

Sorry but that's going to be difficult at present. A good deal of in-depth articles on the subject that I have come across in recent times is in GERMAN-language music mags focusing on 50s R'n'R (the REAL R'n'R, not the latter-day "Rock" that no longer "rolled" ) and 40s/50s R&B. They drew from U.S./English-language sources and input, of course, but offhand I don't have any really in-depth online link. All I can say is that this field HAS been explored extensively and there ARE people out there who leave no stone unturned when it comes to the Crown conglomerate (at least as far as their musical preferences - i.e. R&B and C&W - is concerned).

That's only because you've gone to the wrong place. In R&B and C&W circles (i.e. those areas that made up the BULK of the "popular" music releases on Crown) the fate of the Crown label, the Biharis's dealings and the whole range of LPs have been debated and researched over and over again for a LONG time, and even minor 1st/2nd/3rd pressing differences of this or that LP are being explored there with an almost esoteric intensity that sometimes makes Blue Note collectors' label/pressing obsessions seem pale by comparison! :D And now? Not unknown, that ... I've a couple of Crown pressings that are exact duplicates (except for the lable and catalog number) of earlier Modern LPs, and I also have original MODERN LPs that also existed as slightly later Crown pressings (e.g. the one by Vido Musso with that lady in the Jag on the cover that makes it into most LP sleeve art books ).

I've found Google hits of LPT-1001 which relate to both Fats Waller and Muggsy Spanier so there IS some double numbering going here, it seems, but that Bunny Berigan LP from this is LPT-1003. (Correction: The Booby Sherwood LP I mentioned is not on RCA at all)

Uh oh ... now I see which RCA series the LP mentioned by Chewy comes from - if THIS is what the LPT series was (The "treasury of immortal performances" blurb rang a bell but I admit I did not bother to check at home). I have a Bunny Berigan LP from that series. Picked it up very cheaply at one time just for its "50s pressing" status but it did look like a slapdash affair to me, not many tracks (not more than 10), and the track programming looked like this series was just aimed at casual listeners who'd like to revisit the swing era (only some 20 years past at the time these LPs were issued) without getting too deeply involved.

Just to get this straight, Chewy: I am no expert on RCA reissue policies, I just tried to sum up some general observations from what I've come across in the way of older LPs and from what I've seen in older record catalogs. What I meant to say was that in the 50s and 60s truly coherent and comprehensive reissue programs of older jazz (swing era and before) were MUCH, MUCH rarer (if not to say inexistent) compared to what happened from the 70s onwards. The collectors who did not have access to the 78s had to make do with whatever they were able to get, and since a lot had been out of print since the days of 78 rpms they of course were glad to get their hands on, say, a 16-track LP compilation or a couple of 4-track EPs by their favorite swing-era artist. Then maybe another LP by the same orchestra or artist came along somewhat later in a different "reissue series" (in the case of RCA, for example, Victor may have run one scheme, Camden may have run another) and of course there were bound to be duplications and overlaps. Actually reviewers in jazz mags used to complain about this a fair bit, their key quibble being that while a new reissue LP was quite welcome it was a pity that the same core of tracks tended to get re-reissued ever so often whereas other (not any lesser) tracks tended to get overlooked constantly. A familiar complaint ... Of course there were exceptions. The owners of the Decca catalog used to run quite thoughtfully programmed LP reissues in the 60s on their (black and gold) European Brunswick label, for example, in the mid-60s. And 2-LP sets DID exist right from the 50s but they were indeed much less common than from the late 60s/early 70s.

Not all hope is lost for worldwide collectors if you prefer to get that music on vinyl. Those Lionel Hampton sessions were reissued on two 3-LP sets ("Historical Recording Sessions") on FRENCH RCA as late as the mid-80s (Vol. 1 is RCA PM 42393, Vol. 2 is RCA PM 42417). I bought these sets new in 1986 or 87 and they should turn up in secondhand bins or the usual internet sources every now and then, at least in Europe. Haven't seen a copy for a while (and did not pay attention as I have - and treasure - mine) but when they come up they should be rather affordable - far below any Mosaic (even secondhand) rates.

Not weird at all, just another example of the helter-skelter unorganized piecemeal reissue policy of the majors in the late 50s and 60s. Throw a platter with 10 or 12 or 14 or 16 tracks on the market just like that, without regard to previously and/or concurrently issued tracks, and still the collector will probably have been happy. After all back then many issues were marketed on domestic markets only; U.S. or U.K. or Continental European issues did not nearly as often find their way onto other markets as they do today so a lot of duplication/triplication/quadruplication of reissued titles occurred (even with releases issued within a couple of years on one and the same market). Of course international exchanges did not exist ot the extent they exist today either. Enjoy the music but if you want to have the music in a more cohesive/comprehensive fashion then you will eventually end up with having all the tracks on other reissues too (even if you limit yourself to older vinyl only).

So it seems I have an unheralded classic among my 78s? Will have to spin this one again ... But what's the story with Dodo on this one? Are the label credits a spoof? Penthouse Serenade says the backing is by the Frank Davenport trio (with Davenport on celeste), and Snowbound (which mentions Lucky Thonspon on the label) says it's one "G. Style" on piano. A pseudonym for Dodo?

Saw him live at a festival in the U.K. in the late 90s, and what a show! I am glad I queued up afterwards to get his signature on the covers of a couple of 50s Capitol albums I had brought along. R.I.P. As for his roots and what JSngry said about his playing, check out a sample of this on the Little Jimmy Scott CD (Specialty SPCD 2170-2) which has Sam Butera as a special guest with the Paul Gayten band on two lengthy tracks recorded at a live jam session in 1951. He sure cooks up some heat on "Dueling Tenors".

Actually that LP is spinning on my turntable right now. To give you another impression in a listener's (not critic's words, "Yardbird Suite" obviously is a tune linked with one particular artist and HIS treatment(s) but here where the treatment by necessity (with THAT instrumentation) has to be different it all sounds "just right" and not forced at all and you are not led into making comparisons with the '"master" version (at least I am not). Of course Phil Woods is key factor in it too.

I have an original of that LP and like it VERY, VERY much. And this despite the fact that I am not a fan of flute jazz at all. I often find it - well, Im going to be rude here now - rather "effeminate", especially when played by those who "double" on flute (their main instrument being one of the saxes). Offhand I wouldn't be able to dissect Eddie Costa's playing (that said, I am somewhat of an Eddie Costa fan too) on this record (would need to give it another spin) but IMHO on this one the interplay of the entire group really is fine throughout and everything falls into place nicely. As for your final remark about Eddie Costa's piano and vibes style, I agree - his percussive approach really hints in that direction.

I know ... but I guess I did not put in enough smilies to make that clear. My answer was not so much directed at you but at those who still sneer at the sax "noises" made by the R&B honkers and shouters (because they feel it's much too lowly for their appreciation) but enthuse in their self-cultivated wisdom about the "sublimity" of the noises of a certain type of "free" jazz ;) Noise vs noise if you want ... Anyway, as for the TV show, no idea if the clip does not provide any details, but if you look at the R'n'R movies of about 1955-56 where a lot of black backing bands composed of R&Bers and jazzers (cf. the Alan Freed movies) are present, there still must have been a market for that in the mid-50s. Maybe among white listeners/watches who'd only just then caught up to it whereas the heyday among the black audience had been a bit earlier in the 50s? That Willis Jackson clip would not have been totally out of place in those movies.

Normal. Totally normal. This was still his R&B period, or at least he quickly revived it once more for that TV appearance. Just as great in its own right as everything else. BTW, if this is "exhibitionistic", then what are certain "free" saxophone noises of a a decade or two later? Cacophony? Or is it fine to wisely nod your head in inner amazement at how a "free" player "reveals the utter torture of his self" or "shrieks out the pains of this world" (or whatever other wise judgments there may be) whereas it is strictly a NO-NO if the energy outbursts of the honkers appeal straight to your inner guts for sheer exuberance, joy and excitement? :D

A bit like the collection of one Robert Nieus of Namur (Belgium) that found its way here through a wholesale jazz store purchase by a local secondhand shop a couple of years ago. As quite a lot of them ended up in the Special Offers bin they now are in the hands of several collectors around here (including mine ) plus probably a lot more casual buyers. Not that he stamped them as brutally as this Mr Gordon but he used an glued-on sticker with his name and address stamped on PLUS another sticker with a (file) number on them that are quite impossible to remove (the stickers, that is), at least not without leaving traces. Though I can sympathize with the idea of marking one's records; ever since starting buying vinyl in the mid-70s I've marked my LPs with my name at the upper edge of the back cover, probably spurred by the fact that I'd often witnessed my schoolmates' LPs borrowed by somebody else somehow never made it back to their actual owners (not me ). So I wanted to make sure that if that fate ever befell one of my LPs at least the ball pen indents would still be indelible even after the culprit had tried to erase my name. And somehow the habit has stuck ... No doubt this might reduce the value of my collection when my heirs dispose of it one day but what the h.... ? At least I've refrained from doing it the way it seems to have been a habit with U.S. owners, in particular (judging from the number of LPs like that I've come across through the years), i.e. the owners scribbling their names with a FAT felt tip pen right into the LINER NOTES on the back!