Big Beat Steve

@Stompin: As if there was nothing in between desert island discs and forgettable recordings ... My oh my ... Isn't that a rather narrow(-minded) way of listening to things? In reality there is an awful lot ( in fact, a majority) of "good" (not great, not bad) records out there in ANY given style of music. Not essential but nice to have around at the right moment. And ANY fan, listener and/or collector of music in ANY given style who is interested enough in that particular style to want to explore it in DEPTH (to make discoveries and get a more detailed picture) will gladly explore and listen to these. Even if many of these recordings are not going to finish on his all-time Top Ten and even if these discs are not something you would be in the mood for to listen to each day (but some other time, then, for sure). All of these add to the variety of music across the board of artists and sort of flesh out the "big name artists' " skeleton of a style of music. Besides, in the case of THIS Vanguard recording there is quite a bit more to listen to anyway, and its contents certainly do NOT boil down to the organ part only. Which overall is enough for it to be enjoyable as a "good" (not great but certainly not poor) recording. So - again ... tastes differ, and I have mine, and am just sayin' - and you have yours and that's fine for you for but not pertinent for anyone else. So no need to try to nail this down to some idle fandom (which is no criterion anyway). Besides, who says there AREN'T people "running out to complete their collections of pre-Jimmy Smith organ jazz" somewhere out there? BTW, in case the Jimmy Rushing LP you did not like on the Mosaic set really was VRS-8513 and not VRS-8505, then its actual original title was "If This Ain't The Blues". "Listen to The Blues" is VRS-8505 and has no guitar.

Nonsense. At approx. 8500 vinyl albums nobody can remember each and everyone of these at every moment. I'd concede that this is one of many non-desert-island discs (most records in anyone's collection - that has reached a certain size - are, anyway), but beyond that ...? Now really! BTW, re- Marlowe Morris, when I listened to that Night At Count Basie's album last night I was immediately reminded of the Fats Waller and Basie way of playing the organ too. I see why it might grate some but like others have clearly pointed out since, there WAS a way of playing the organ pre-Jimmy Smith. And much as I have come to like Jimmy Smith in recent years, he is NOT the beginning and end of organ jazz at all, and apart from others (like the Scotts ), there's nothing wrong with the earlier styles either - be it Buckner, Wild Bill Davis, Doggett or most of the others, including Marlowe Morris. Their styles might not strike a chord with all listeners today at ANY moment (me neither) but there still are ways to enjoy them enasily.

Yes but some of the few CDs listed that fall into the realm of the Mosaic reissue are programmed in what is a really senseless way for a (2nd or 3rd generation) reissue. E.g. the "Essential Jimmy Rushing" CD (which I, for example, picked up as a chance purchase only because it yielded me 5 of the 8 "If This Ain't The Blues" LP which I did not have yet). The original 2-LP set was made up of material from all 3 Rushing LPs on Vanguard (but all of them incomplete). This CD has 14 of the 16 LP tracks, i.e. it omits even more! The other two CDs listed also mix the 3 LPs randomly but I wonder what the point ever was of re-reissuing that "Essential" twofer in such a brainless way. Surely there can never can have been that many tentative buyers in the market for not more than a sampling within such a "niche within a niche" market to warrant such a reissue at all? BTW, on another matter, re- what Stompin' wrote on 24 January: By mistake I yesterday pulled a reissue of the "Night at Count Basie's" LP from the special offers bin at our local shop. As I found out upon returning home, I already have a copy sitting here, but this mistake triggered me to gave it a spin again. Nothing earth-shattering, but a swinging and casual affair in the Basie spirit, and certainly not as humdrum as Stompin' makes it sound. "Different strokes" and "one man's meat ...", I guess, but don't nobody let themselves be put THAT off ...

A smart idea if one has the equipment.

Correction to my above post: "main interest is pre-1970 recordings" (not just pre-1960 only).

Getting away from Vol. 1 of the "Essential Jazz Records" that Rakshakeh asked about, here is a question to those in the know: How does Vol. 2 of these "Essentials": Max Harrison, Eric Thacker , Stuart Nicholson, "The Essential Jazz Records, Volume 2: Modernism to Postmodernism" (London and New York: Mansell, 2000, 889 pp., compare to the referenced earlier guide? "Modern Jazz 1945-70 The Essential Recordings" , by Max Harrison, Alun Morgan, Ronald Atkins, Michael James and Jack Cook. I.e. as far as the time span (1945-70) of the earlier book is concerned? Largely same records selected, and just updated (pressings, etc.)? Or significant differences in the selections? So if one's main interest is pre-1960 recordings anyway, would it be worth tracking down a copy of the "1945-70" book and skip the "Vol. 2"? or would it be insightful comparing BOTH books? Even after re-reading the other thread linked earlier ... ... I am not sure how to figure this out.

The books do seem to do better in their coverage. Examples: Albums reviewed: Coleman Hawkins: 16 pre-1945, 44 post-1945. Budd Johnson: 5 post-1957. Buck Clayton: 21 albums post-1945. Lionel Hampton 9 pre-1945, 22 post-1945. Edmond Hall. 1 pre-1945, 2 post-1945 (at least a sampling of his outpout, and omissions in this case really can only be due to the recordings having been OOP or on obscure European collector labels that were not easily found in the USA) And so on ... And as another example, check this entry... It takes some thoroughness to dig that deep among obscure artists ... I can attest to the correctness of his statement as to the existence of a Peck Kelley section. In one well-stocked local record shop copies the Peck Kelley Jam twofer on Commodore sat prominently almost for ages (either they had stocked too many or - more likely - these were slow sellers). I did not pick it up at the time either but more than 15 years ago I found both the Jam twofer and the twofer on Arcadia at the same time at a shop clearout sale at 2.50 EUR apiece - a price at which you can take chances, and I did not regret it one minute ...

@all: As for that " dreadful deadening phrase "this recording will appeal to fans of traditional jazz" (that) recurs again and again " , I agree that this is all too generic. However, in the AMG (and similar) guides I have come to understand this as "this record is among those worth purchasing for fans of ---" I.e. among the better and more deserving or important ones within that particular style of jazz. This does make more sense and is at least saying something, and judging by the records reviewed I am familiar with it usually is quite correct. However - in those AMG Guides one thing needs to be taken into account: Somewhere in the foreword disclaimer of the book it says something like "undistinguished records are not reviewed". This may be so, but make no mistake: At least in the 2nd ed. I am often using for reference there are many, many records in an artist's entry in the book that aren't listed at all, but clearly not because they are "undistinguished" (indifferent, dispensable, unimportant, forgettable, whatever ...) but because they have long been out of print or because you just cannot include everything by everyone. So there ARE records out there that are at least "Good" and worth checking out but are not in the Guide. Besides, there is a fair share of records in the AMG Guide that are given poor or lukewarm reviews (with only 1 or 2 out of 5 stars) - often to highlight either poor packaging and programming or, more importantly, an artist who was well past his prime or had drifted too far towards diluted "pop" fare. So in the case of artists with huge output the reader is advised not to embrace everything (particularly from a certain period) but be cautious here and there. Useful advice, but where does the "Undistinguished and therefore unmentioned" come in, then?? And by what criteria (given that some nice recordings clearly were omitted outright as well)? And in the case of the Third Ear guides, availability of what was in print at the time the book was published is an aspect to be considered. There may be interesting recordings in an artist's discography that just hd been OOP for too long and therefore do not figure in there. In the AMG Guide the reader is warned often enough that this or that record reviewed may be hard to find or has been deleted, so this compensates somewhat. And again - comparison of the ratings in both books with those given in Down Beat way back sometimes is mindboggling ...

Are you thinking, for example maybe, of his exceedingly repetitive habit of referring to the intensity and power of a recording as "quite heated"? Inept (as if he constantly shied away from using the outright term "hot", but I for one have long since come to read past this ...) True, too. That's what I've often found when reading his reviews in the All Music Guide more or less long AFTER having bought this or that record.

I agree about the "esoteric" character of latter-day "classic" (or "traditional") jazz. Though I pick up such items from time to time I'd lean much more towards Mainstream Jazz too when it comes to "latter-day" stuff. So if that book covers those artists and recording periods, then go for it, and try to find out about the records elsewhere too. One I often refer to (without letting them dictate the evolution of my tastes ) for ANY style of jazz is the All Music Guide of Jazz (I have the 2nd ed. of the late 90s that still lists a fairly huge number of vinyl and does not hesitate urging the readers to go for the LPs instead of incomplete CD re-reissues whenever the LPs appear to have been compiled better). (Do I hear some forumnists heave a sigh now who have misgivings about Scott Yanow .. ?? 😄) Another one is the "Swing" volume from the "Third Ear Essential Listening Companion" series (Scott Yanow again ...) published around the turn of the millennium. A "Bebop" volume appeared at the same time which is also useful. Others that I would have been interested in and that figured in the ad blurb on the back pages of these books somehow never seemed to have made it into print). The focus is on CDs but LPs worth searching are also identified. And of course you can deduce which top-rated music on CDs in its pages would be worth searching for on LP. (Noted in passing, sometimes it is interesting and amusing to contrast the ratings of some of the records covered in any of the above guides with the reviews in period issues of Down Beat when the records were new! At times there is an abyss between what reviewers found - or not - in a given record ...) Then there is the "Swing" volume from the "Music Hound" series of album guides (which I for one bought before i became aware of the Third Ear series). It has its points but I find it a bit lightweight in its assessments and a bit too much geared to newbies. BTW, both the Third Ear and the Music Hound "Swing" guides also give some coverage to Neo-Swing acts current in the 90s (now almost on the verge of becoming "oldie" stuff too - but some still remains worth exploring IMO).

Yes that's an interesting thread (which I cannot recall having seen at the time). And I'll do as Allen Lowe did, and copy-and-paste that long review and assessment by Larry Kart of Vol. 2 for future reference. Pity he touched on Vol. 1 only in passing. (Maybe a hint at what Rabshakeh complained (sort of) about in his post above, and a reflection of an attitude adopted by large parts of the jazz audience: "Modern Jazz here, Modern Jazz there, Modern Jazz everywhere .. but Swing, or Classic Jazz? Oh yes ... there was such a thing too .. oh well ... ") @Rabshakeh: Your reply touches on many interesting points, and I do understand you quite well (and did not want to insinuate that you'd follow the contents of such "essential" lists without a good dose of comon sense). What I do not quite get from your post, though, is this: Are you looking for additional info and guidance on LPs woth checking out of swing and-re-swing jazz recorded DURING those eras (i.e broadly prior to 1945), or rather on LPs covering the output of Swing men in the decades thereafter (i.e. what is commonly referred to as MAINSTREAM jazz)? In the latter case writings by Stanley Dance and Albert McCarthy might be woprth checking out too ... but to be taken with a grain of salt as well ...). But in fact, (against my better judgment dictated by overcrowded music bookshelves here ) your initial post almost has me tempted to get me a copy of that book too ... Out of sheer curiosity (as a means of maybe gewtting addiotnal input on records I've had for a long time but haven't listened to for ages) and not least of all to compare its contents with "The Collector's Jazz - Traditonal and Swing" by John S. Wilson (published in 1958 and therefore with a different slant, I guess - and long-out-of-date catalog numbers, of course ). As for this statement of yours, "In the internet age, there are thousands of listicles and sources of recommendations for most every musical genre ... However it is still all very thin on the ground for later traditional jazz and swing", I agree that it seems so. The websites and blogs that immediately come to mind are very specialized and not really "recommendation"-type sites. And some I am familiar with (that reach out from jazz into R&B too) seem to have been somewhat dormant lately (i.e. the Crownpropeller and Be Bop Wino blogs). So all in all, your approach about guidance for LPs from that era seems a sound one for the time being.

Secondhand copies should be available online at reasonable prices. I see that on eBay.co.uk prices currently start at GBP 6 or so for this Vol. 1. No doubt some forumists will have a copy and can provide the info you ask for. However, I would not advise to take any such lists as more than a (very) ROUGH guide for personal explorations. And certainly not as THE Gospel. On the one hand, I would not be surprised if the contents of this list of "essentials" (beyond updates of pressings or catalog numbers) vary from edition to edition of this book. Which begs the question: Why?? (If recordings later deleted ever were THAT essential ...) And on the other, who is anyone to tell anybody what to listen to in a MANDATORY way? Suggestions, recommendations and advice - yes, but beyond? Tastes and preferences differ, after all. For example: Within the time and style frame of this Vol. 1, I listen to Louis Jordan much more often than to Louis Armstrong. Though I think I own most of the "essential" recordings of Armstrong too. Does this mean guilty feelings about oversights or "missing out"? Nope ...

No topics are closed here if I understand things correctly. They either run on or they peter out (and/or sometimes are revived years or decades later - if someone else picks up on the subject). BTW, I seem to remember these WCJ anthologies have been discussed here before? So now there's one more topic to choose from for anyone who is into WCJ (incidentally I consider myself one of these too ). Re- edited tracks (as mentioned by Mikeweil), I think James Harrod has provided some details on his blog.

I doubt it. All of this music has been around the (reissue) block so many times that those seriously interested in it will have all or almost all of it (and can get the rest without any undue problems). Besides, it's not hard bop. Which will certainly limit its sales potential in the minds of many jazz reissue marketers. And anyway ... the PJ compilation albums from this series run contrary to most Mosaic programing and packaging policies. What would Mosaic see in a collection of incomplete sessions, individual takes and tunes, alternates, some (elsewhere) unissueds and some leftovers? The albums made sense in their day and within the original framework (and still do to those who like experiencing the music in this "period" way) but I cannot see they would line up with too many Mosaic programming ideals.

Understandable and reasonable - and better that way. I remember the days here when certain discussions touching on the political again and again turned into flame wars. Some subforums had become rather unreadable because of that. Not least of all when one certain forumist was involved whose forum nick recalled a certain late 30s trumpeter-alcoholic. (Though for the very same reason as you I would not put my money in this auction, even if I were interested in any items at all)