patricia

Sounds good, Ed. I was concerned that you might be falling for the same woman, with a different face. It's a common error we make, I guess trying to get back what we lost. A do-over in a way. Your lady sounds like a keeper, so far. I wish you happiness. We all want that for you and I guess for all of us too. Good luck.

Isn't that a hanging offence? MG YES.

Yes. Good stuff Ed. Question. How many of the same qualities does your new lady have that your ex has? The reason I ask is that many of my friends whose relationships and marriages didn't work out kept being attracted to the same personality traits, over and over, even marrying them in some cases, starting the cycle over. I wish you happiness, but be careful.

I stand corrected. And it never caused me to fly into a rage, did it? And, BTW, Paul, that's a good buy and a really comfortable-looking chair. Go for it!!

The first emotion I felt when I got my own place was not sadness, but relief. I had felt sadness for so long it was wonderful to know that I had taken control of my life. There are few things sadder than realizing that you have been living a lie for years. What held the marriage together were the two beautiful daughters who came out of it. My commitment was to them. But, to stay, after they didn't need me would have been the same as slowly dying. So, I left. There was nobody else involved in the breakup. If I marry again, it will be to someone I truly can't live without. But, I'm fine on my own, poorer, but much happier. I now can eat what I want, listen to the music I want, know that my space is as neat, or as messy as I want it to be, do work that gives me joy. Life can be good again. My ex and I are close friends, I think because we have finally realized that we are better as friends than as a couple.

I just feel that marriage is ALL about trust. Having said that, there are some couples who don't seem to mind that their spouse is runnin' around and so it's difficult to generalize. Everybody has their own idea of just what they can put up with. I don't think that it's being old-fashioned, or prissy to expect someone who has promised to follow the rules as they are set out when they make the decision to get married to do that. Sometimes people get married for reasons other than wanting to make a commitment to the other person. Perhaps they are marrying the other person to legitimize a surprise pregnancy, but have given their partner the impression that that's the only reason they agreed to the marriage. The man feels entitled, as long as he supports his family and lives with them. Not as rare as I thought, it turns out. Sometimes they are getting married because all their friends are married and they don't realize how long life is these days. Those people should, IMO, hold off on getting involved in a new relationship until they can tie up the decision on what they are going to do about their marriage. To me, it shows great disrespect for one's partner when they are under the impression that their promise, given in good faith, is not taken as seriously by their spouse, having found out about the deception. The only thing to do is to talk to the other person and decide what is to be done. But, I still say that if cheating has occurred and the affair is over, and other person really doesn't know, the cheater should just shut up and go on. Unfortunately, affairs don't always remain secret. Unless you conducted it in a remote cave somewhere, your spouse is quite likely to find out about it. They may still choose to accept that they can't trust you and stay in the marriage anyway, living a life of quiet desperation, waiting for the next one to happen. I guess some people can live that way. Most people are hurt beyond imagining. Even if they don't leave, the marriage will never be the same again. So, Paul is going through a terribly difficult time. But, he will get through it, stronger and better than ever. Life gives us crap like this to deal with and how we do that is the difference between somebody who is felled by adversity and somebody who dusts themselves off and gets back on the rollercoaster. Paul is a survivor.

That's not my name Rod. But, I don't get apoplectic about it. If the worst thing that someone does is assign me a nickname, I'd consider myself Lady Luck's own tot. OK, just wondering. I know someone from my schooldays who used to go by "Debbie", but insists on being referred to as "Debra" now. Like Chewy, I've nothing to really add to this thread, except that it takes time, self-reflection and reassessment. Also, try to go and do something that you've always thought about doing, but have never taken the proper time to do. Sometimes that brings you back to zero and a new beginning. Hang in there Paul. Rod Rod, most people who know me in real life call me "Patricia." But, there have been a few who have called me "Patty". Nobody calls me "Pat" or "Patsy", thank God. I don't make a big deal about it, but when I introduce myself I use my name. If they choose to nickname me, I take it in the spirit in which it's done. Further to the flat comment about single guys/women sleeping with married guys/women, I of course meant if the single person knows and does it anyway. Marriage is complicated enough without somebody else agreeing to help the married person figuratively spit on their commitment to their spouse. Now, I'm not saying that people who do it are horrible people. I'm just saying that promising to stay faithful to one person lasts until they agree to end it. Otherwise, why be married? Many people, men and women, like the stabilty of marriage and the better lifestyle they have. But, they still see themselves as single and very often will go so far as to present themselves as single to unsuspecting people, which compounds the original intent to cheat. Thus, they have somebody who provides the variety that they don't have in their marriage. For both men and women, it's not about older vs younger, but old vs new. Women too get bored with their partners and are just as vulnerable to offers of an exciting, good-looking guy who seems to find them alluring. So this was not meant as a slam against men, but as an observation of what can happen to a relationship should we get too comfortable and forget that there are lots of temptations out there for both partners. It's very comfortable to have somebody at home doing all the things that make life pleasant, cooking, cleaning, child-raising etc. Many married people who get bored with their spouse think that it's perfectly fine to strike out on their own, from time to time, to see what they're missing out there. By doing that they risk their marriage, and that's their choice. Sometimes the very fact that they could get caught adds to the excitement. The other person is more exciting because they usually are not tasked with the day to day mundane details of which real life consists. My feeling is that if a married person should find themselves involved in an extramarital fling, the worst thing they can do is to confess to their spouse, if the other person didn't find out independantly. Why try to assuage one's guilt by passing on the pain to the non-cheating partner? The only reason anyone does that is to make themselves feel better. The thing about that is that the person they cheated on is then forced to make a decision between forgiving the cheater, or asking for a divorce. That, IMO, is a crappy thing to do. If the affair is over, the guilty person should just shut up and live with the guilt, vowing silently to shape up. But, I still say that anyone who thinks that they can carry on a long-term affair and not have their spouse know about it is fooling themselves. Their wife/husband at least suspects and in most cases actually knows. They are settling for a partner whom they can't trust. Who are we to judge how a wife/husband deals with the knowledge that they are being lied to, sometimes for years? Moralizing was certainly not my point. It was just that marriage is a very specific commitment and if we are not prepared to live up to that promise, the honest thing to do is to get out of Dodge.

That's not my name Rod. But, I don't get apoplectic about it. If the worst thing that someone does is assign me a nickname, I'd consider myself Lady Luck's own tot.

That's all I'm saying. There is nothing funny about stealing another man's wife, or another woman's husband, even temperarily. I wish Paul the best as well.

Take your Georgia Peach commemorative quarter and...... I was making an honest observation. I have a sense of humour in good working order. But, if you think that it's perfectly fine to be the one with whom somebody else's spouse cheats, then that's just sad. Blaming the woman is as retrogressive as the practice in some Middle Eastern countries that stone adultrous women and let the men in the equation off scot-free. Are you saying that men are children, not in control of their impulses? BOTH are at fault and just because Dmitry DIDN'T KNOW THE HUSBAND doesn't exonerate him. Here we have a thread about the pain of divorce and somehow making an honest observation is suddenly not having a sense of humour. I just don't believe that the cheating spouse is the only one at fault. So, shoot me.

I was waiting for someone to mention this. IMO, 8 out of 10 marriages fail when one of the spouses is cheating. Soul-searching or not, odds are your former spouse was porking someone before the marriage went south. I've had some married lovers, but noone divorced because of me, I think. Immoral perhaps, but I was in my early to mid twenties, single and had my own apartment. If anything I was being preyed upon by the unfaithful wives. At least I got to fulfill my "older woman" fantasy. So the women tempted you? Sounds right out of Genesis. It's a total cop-out, Dmitry. Sleeping with someone else's spouse, besides being wrong, is a betrayal of the woman's husband. Where is the brotherhood that men seem to be so proud of having? How would you feel about someone who doesn't care about your wife, or worse, trying to get her to leave you, sleeping with her behind your back? Who would you be most angry at? Which brings me back to my amazement at cheating spouses who insist that their husband or wife doesn't know. In all but a few cases, THEY KNOW. They just don't want to lose their home and the comfort of being married. In fact, many spouses pretend not to know because the guilt that the cheating spouse feels often results in extra attention when the cheater is at home with them. But, don't you think that the loss of trust and respect for the other person in the marriage kills what's most important in the marriage? Then, what's left?

What else is there to talk about? Feelings?? Not unless you really want to know your wife or husband. Why bother if you don't care what's going on in their mind, as long as your life perks along and somebody is looking after your needs? It's easy to just ignore the subtleties, until it's too late. That's what I meant about the total surprise of a spouse seemingly, out of nowhere, just up and leaving. It's actually rare that there was no warning, maybe even several warnings. The left spouse just chose to ignore them.

Have you asked her why? Oh yes! We've discussed it in private and with a therapist. I don't feel I've gotten a satisfactory answer, like either she hasn't shared the real reason or she doesn't know what it is herself. The bulk of what she tells me is very complementary about our marriage, but that her feelings haved changed somewhat inexplicably. Now I know many might suspect an affair, but I know that's not happening. I'm tending to think that there was nothing I could do that would have saved the marriage. It seems like she has reached a point where she wants to be alone, almost like a cycle. Middle-age related issues perhaps? I don't know. If she has already decided to leave you, she may not want to throw all her reasons at you, even in therapy, partly because she doesn't want to hurt you any more than she already has. If she's already written the marriage off, what is the point of twisting the knife? You know how when you were a teenager and dating, if a girlfriend wanted out of the relationship she almost always said "It's not you. It's me"? Maybe you did the same thing if the situation was reversed and you were the one who wanted out. Most people, particularly spouses or lovers don't want to hurt you if it isn't going to do anything but wreck any kind of cordial relationship you may still have. I really don't think that your wife doesn't know why she wants to leave. I would think that she might just want to be civilized about it. After all, she loved you when she married you. So, she must think you have many good qualities and doesn't want to bring up things that aren't going to help and may just destroy whatever you may have left. Divorce doesn't mean that you didn't live that part of your life. Leaving a marriage is not a simple thing and I can't think of anyone who just arbitrarily up and left for no reason. Sometimes it's to do with a partner "letting themselves go", both sexes. Guys will leave a lot earlier because of that than women will. But, that doesn't mean that putting on fifty or so pounds, letting your personal grooming go all to hell, or just not caring doesn't matter to women. It does. Getting too comfortable sometimes sends a message to the other partner that if they say anything they are shallow. So, they don't say anything. After all, the rest of the marriage is OK and most don't want to change their life for such a trivial reason. Lots of men and women in those circumstances will just start an affair, or series of affairs rather than leave the marriage, thinking it's all about bad sex, compounding the problem. They get a lover and their lives seem to improve, with two partners giving them what they need, a home and a way to get back the magic of just dating. After all, marriage is a comfortable situation. Leaving because there is no intimacy is the honest out, but much more difficult and more and more people will go outside the marriage, often for years, rather than fix the problems at home that are the cause of the lack of intimacy. But, inevitably, the marriage dies anyway, but much later. Better to leave while both people can start again, knowing much more clearly what they want and what they are prepared to do to get it. A hard lesson, but one that more people than we think have to painfully learn.

Jon, as always you are a sweetheart. I know that you will understand what I'm saying now. You, like me are a solitary artist and we don't give that up easily. If I gave the impression that my ex was soley to blame for our marriage not working out, it was my fault too. I didn't see that we are so different that we would never be travelling on the same path, no matter how harmonious we were able to make our lives seem both to our two daughters and to our friends. I sank myself into my children and my work and let years go by without admitting that there was nothing but a friendship between us. Lots of people are content with that. After all, marriage is just your life lived in tandem with your partner's life. It's not an endless date. I guess I should have remembered what my late father said about picking a life partner. It seemed airy-fairy at the time, but I think that it's very true now, having been through the years I have. He said "Don't marry someone just because it's time and you could live with them. Marry the one you can't live without." I think that intensity has to be there to begin with, although it will mature over time. If it was never there, you have nothing to hang on to during the bad times. Living with somebody else, even someone you love and respect is difficult. None of us are perfect. But, if there is no communication, no common interests, therefore no passion, there really is nothing left to save. Better to part friends. If there are kids, it's much more difficult. They really don't know and don't want to know about what went wrong with you as a couple. They want to know that you aren't divorcing them. That's the hard part. So I think that it's always better to admit early, before you have a family that it's not working. After other people are in the picture, the problems don't go away, but you have to cope in a way that doesn't spread the pain out too much. I waited until my kids were grown. But I realize now that there is no good time to leave a marriage. Maybe not the best decision, but it's what I did.

I don't think that it's a matter of women brewing for years and then just suddenly giving their partner the boot. Quite often the woman puts up with an untenable, to her, situation, hoping that it will change for the better. Of course she should say what's bothering her. Many times she isn't sure whether if she does say something, what she says will not be interpreted as PMS, or the estrogen talking and simply dismissed as nagging by her partner. Many women just don't want to make waves if they aren't prepared to leave. The leaving doesn't usually happen out of nowhere, although it may seem to. Also, women and men leave marriages and long-term relationships for different reasons. For example, women will put up with infidelity, horrible intimate relations, even alcoholism before they will leave, if they have children. That applies to other problems as well, if they think their partner doesn't listen to them. Even a bad marriage may seem better than deciding to raise kids on your own. So, they stay. Their men will actually believe that their wives don't know about long-term infidelity just because they haven't told them. Believe me, women ALWAYS know about cheating eventually. They just choose, for whatever reason, to put up with it. Bad sex by itself is not the cause of a marriage deteriorating. It's more often a symptom of a general lack of communication. Women usually don't want to totally shatter whatever calmness is in their marriage either. So, quite often women will only leave a bad marriage after years, sometimes decades of burying their own unhappiness until they can actually survive on their own. It's not always the snap decision that it may seem, but one that has been coming for many years. Just because there are no fights doesn't mean that everything is fine. To be sure, just hoping for change is not the same thing as actively trying to air out her problems with the relationship. But, there are many men who just tune their partner out when she attempts to talk to them about feelings and her partner takes from that that her guy isn't interested in really talking to her. This festers over several years of a marriage that is dying. Many men don't talk to their partners except about their work, or the kids, or the household workings. THEY DON'T LISTEN to subtle undercurrents and so the breakup, when it comes, is a total surprise to them. The sudden end to a long-term relationship is a shock that cannot be healed by simply seeking out another partner to fill the void. Take time for reflection. Don't look for a replacement until you know that you are not choosing someone exactly the same as the one who left you. I have friends who have married the same kind of person over and over, with the same results over and over. Being on your own is not the worst thing that can happen to you. Great post, Patty. Also very scary for me, becuase I don't disucss much with my wife. We act more like roommates than soulmates most of the time, but our marriage has also lasted 19 years (plus lived together two years before that.) Who knows how it will all end. I side with Joe's comments. I am virtually helpless to control life. I can control the little things, but as you age, you realize how helpless we really are. Well, I'll see your nineteen years and raise you thirty. I guess the thing is to talk to your partner. If there are problems, do something about them. Short term pain for long term gain. Don't let things slide just because your partner has given up on trying to talk to you about what may seem trivial to you. If you have a history of dismissing their concerns, if they express them, they just won't try anymore. My ex would just walk away, thinking that not talking about whatever was bothering me would make it go away by itself. We never fought about anything, ever. But, we never seemed to be on the same page. Now that we have our own lives, we are good friends. We talk now. In fact, I actually went back to him briefly, thinking that things would be different. My being there in the former role brought back the same situation. So, almost right away I knew that I had made the right decision by leaving. My ex is a good guy, or I wouldn't have married him in the first place. But he has a problem with facing personal problems, so just ignores them. Don't do that. You can't fix problems if you don't admit they are there.

Exactly. He thought it was funny. Go figure. All I could think of was how thankful I was that my parents are not alive anymore to have been told that I was dead when I'm not. As it was, I wonder whether when I do die, which I will, he will just re-cycle the same obit.

I don't think that it's a matter of women brewing for years and then just suddenly giving their partner the boot. Quite often the woman puts up with an untenable, to her, situation, hoping that it will change for the better. Of course she should say what's bothering her. Many times she isn't sure whether if she does say something, what she says will not be interpreted as PMS, or the estrogen talking and simply dismissed as nagging by her partner. Many women just don't want to make waves if they aren't prepared to leave. The leaving doesn't usually happen out of nowhere, although it may seem to. Also, women and men leave marriages and long-term relationships for different reasons. For example, women will put up with infidelity, horrible intimate relations, even alcoholism before they will leave, if they have children. That applies to other problems as well, if they think their partner doesn't listen to them. Even a bad marriage may seem better than deciding to raise kids on your own. So, they stay. Their men will actually believe that their wives don't know about long-term infidelity just because they haven't told them. Believe me, women ALWAYS know about cheating eventually. They just choose, for whatever reason, to put up with it. Bad sex by itself is not the cause of a marriage deteriorating. It's more often a symptom of a general lack of communication. Women usually don't want to totally shatter whatever calmness is in their marriage either. So, quite often women will only leave a bad marriage after years, sometimes decades of burying their own unhappiness until they can actually survive on their own. It's not always the snap decision that it may seem, but one that has been coming for many years. Just because there are no fights doesn't mean that everything is fine. To be sure, just hoping for change is not the same thing as actively trying to air out her problems with the relationship. But, there are many men who just tune their partner out when she attempts to talk to them about feelings and her partner takes from that that her guy isn't interested in really talking to her. This festers over several years of a marriage that is dying. Many men don't talk to their partners except about their work, or the kids, or the household workings. THEY DON'T LISTEN to subtle undercurrents and so the breakup, when it comes, is a total surprise to them. The sudden end to a long-term relationship is a shock that cannot be healed by simply seeking out another partner to fill the void. Take time for reflection. Don't look for a replacement until you know that you are not choosing someone exactly the same as the one who left you. I have friends who have married the same kind of person over and over, with the same results over and over. Being on your own is not the worst thing that can happen to you.

That's exactly what I think whenever the Darwin awards are published. How about a situation in which a dear friend, for a joke, e-mails all your mutual friends a fond obituary they've composed for YOU as a joke? Everybody except you receives the e-mail and thinks you are dead. Then, when you realize what's happened, you try to handle it with good humour and grace, notifying all that you are in fact alive. Oddly, you are suddenly vilified for not being angrier? Yes. It happened to me. Made me wonder whether that very sweet and caring obit will just be saved and used when I finally do die, which of course I will.

I have some experience in helping guys just like you select clothing. I owned a wardrobe selection/shopping business for years. We did presentations to sales-people, executives and people who were attempting to upgrade both their skills to further their careers. Looking appropriately dressed is not the only thing that determines if you will advance. But, as you know, it is important. First impressions are overwhelmingly telling. After all, they already have your resume. This is show and tell time. OK. First of all, DO NOT go with polyester cheap. A 100% cool wool or light to mid-weight wool with no trendy detailing or anything that dates it would be best, and quite affordable. Darker tones are more versatile than lighter ones. If you want to go with something a little more stylish, wait til later and remember the stuff you already will have by then in the way of shirts and ties. Your being of taller-than-average height would, I think, send you to Big 'N Tall, or similar outlet that caters to taller and bigger guys. They are not particularly expensive, very helpful and your suit will fit you. Ask the nice man to help you pick out a tie or two, as well as a couple of shirts whose collars go well with both your face and the lines of the suit. Pay particular attention to how well the suit fits and how comfortable it is for you. You don't want to be even thinking about how you look. Do all the scutwork at home and then just get out there and concentrate on the interview, knowing that you look as fine as it is possible for you to look. Don't forget your shoes should be co-ordinated as well, good, basic oxfords, as well as polished, with neutral socks above them. No cheap jewelry, and pay attention to your general grooming. Good luck, kiddo.

Please don't apologize. I can't believe you found the musicians that you did. THANK YOU so much MG. I really appreciate your finding this for me. You're a love.

Allow me to shower you with one more. I like it.

Thanks MG. The backup is so good that it struck me as a shame that they weren't given credit for the great work they did on this album.

OK. I have Pee Wee Crayton's album on my lap and these are the notes on the back: "Pee Wee is as gross a misnomer as labeling a fat man, Tiny. Pee Wee stands close to six-foot tall. And when Pee Wee Crayton throws back his head, and wails the cry of the blues - he towers a mighty colossus! He took to singing like a boy takes to strawerry jam. It came naturally, effortlessly. When someone thrust a battered guitar in his lap, his strong, brown hands curled around it. He caressed the strings and folk poetry leapt forth. PEE WEE CRAYTON. That's all there is in this "Crown" Album. Some of the songs are biting and barbaric. Desolate lonliness and black despair often creep into his music. Always, there is an aura of "funky" earthiness and vitality that radiates about Pee Wee Crayton. When he isn't singing, he basks in the solo spotlight, playing guitar. Backgrounds are supplied by a hard-rockin' rhythm section, aided and abetted by a raw-boned, gutty tenor sax. Pee Wee wrote all the tunes. Half are vocals, half instrumental. Big Crayton-hits "Texas Hop" and "Blues After Hours" are included. In the honest, compassionate, virile style of Pee Wee Crayton, all that is blues is projected. If you enjoy the blues, unadulterated and pure, we enthusiastically recommend... PEE WEE CRAYTON! John Marlo" Track List: Side 1 Texas Hop Blues After Hours Phone Call From My Baby California Women Side 2 Blues in My Heart Pee Wee's Boogie Old Fashioned Baby Blues For My Baby My Everything Good stuff. There is no personnel list, so the excellent backup which seems to consist of a piano, sax, drums and bass is anonymous. Too bad.

Pee Wee Crayton - self-titled on Crown label. I had never heard of Crayton, but saw this album and was curious. He's a very good blues guitarist. Good thing I only paid $1 for this album. I think the previous owner was painting and had this on their turntable. There are tiny paint spots on Side 1, which cause the needle to be a little unsure. Not a big problem, but a little one. Before that, the soundtrack from "Pretty Baby", which was the best part, by far of the film. Early Dixieland. Love it.

Earlier: Ziggy Elman and his Orchestra play music for your dancing pleasure. Now: Dixieland Jazz and Chicago. Side 1 Will Bradley and his orchestra Side 2 Bud Freeman on tenor, Don Lamond on drums and Dave Bowman on piano