erhodes

Sly's drummer, Santana's conga player (I think), Larry Graham on bass, a few of Tower of Power's horn players, Sylvester, Patryce "Chocolate" Banks (from Graham Central Station), and the Pointer Sisters singing background... Bad mf...

That first piece, "Intercosmosis", is apparently an unissued track from the "When Angels Speak of Love" session...sort of a warm up for "Next Stop Mars". Very strong. Also, it's in stereo. It is part of a body of evidence that suggests there is/was a stereo master of WASOL. The rest of the material is almost certainly from the "Heliocentric I" session. It includes what appears to be an alternate take of "Other Worlds" from H1...the new title is "Interplanetary Travelers". The discographical information on the jacket is almost certainly wrong. It is not material from the "Heliocentric 2" session. There was a thread about this on the Saturn listserv in May of '05. "Intercosmosis" is definitely the banger but "Interplanetary Travelers" is a good listen...sort of a compressed "Shadow World".

Why? I've gotten great LP tranfers using the soundcard and Goldwave. Although it would certainly save steps if their software recognizes track breaks and splits up the tracks automatically and also sets levels, I fail to see the advantage otherwise. If the point in bypassing the soundcard is the fact that soundcards are easy to overdrive, well - set the levels lower. Here's a bunch of marketing hype that explains why the Inport is better. But, from my perspective, some of the hype makes sense. Most commercial sound cards (even the expensive, high-end "gamer" cards) are mostly concerned with sound playback, rather than sound recording. In theory, a device concerned only with recording (and priced about the same as most basic soundcards) will have better analog to digital components. The fact that it is external is also a plus -- any electrical noise present inside the PC case will have much less effect on an external device. Interesting thread. I use a no longer available sound card for digital recording called the Audiowerk 2, made by a presumably defunct firm called emagic. The card was specifically designed for music playback AND recording. It fits in a regular pci slot and has RCA jacks for both digital and analogue in and out right on the card...so they're right on the back of my computer. I had to buy it from Sam Ash rather than a computer store. It was being targeted to musicians rather than straight up computer folk. I didn't take out the card that came with the pc since it's integrated into the mother board. So I have two sound cards and I think there may actually be an interrupt conflict, though I've never experienced a conflict. Always assumed this was because they are never used simultaneously. I select the Audiowerk for my music software. The integrated card handles windows on, windows off, etc. The advantage of the card is not so much that it is optimized for recording rather than playback but that it is optimized for music rather than the other uses that computer sound cards are put to. Per Chuck's comment, the sound cards bundled with new computers are generally higher distortion devices than those which would be used specifically for music applications...though I suppose if you can't hear a difference it don't matter. I've not had a problem because my card is internal, though I would not be surprised if an external version...which didn't exist, AFAIK...would have beeen quieter. I think that would probably only be apparent if I was attempting to make studio quality recordings. I use my rig mostly for lp to cd transfers and the card's noise level is below the floor of the surface noise on the lp's. I always find out about the latest "convert your records" gadgets in these lp to cd threads. When I bought the Audiowerk a few years back the only real choices were a soundcard and software vs. a stand alone cd recorder. Based on others' descriptions of the latter...and subsequent descriptions of the various devices that have come to market since...my sense is that the only reason not to use a card and software is price plus the fact that many folks seem to have a lot of records but no phono preamp. The price issue is not so much with the card...I paid, I think, under $200 for mine...but the software. I use Wave Lab and Sound Forge, an admittedly expensive proposition. I also still have a preamp with a phono section...since I play my lp's with some regularity. I have no issues with regard to what kind of editing I can do (I don't need anywhere near the capability I have), avoiding unwanted gaps between tracks, or inserting track markers where I want them. For instance, when I record a whole side of an lp, I generally delete the analogue silence between the tracks, insert a track marker, and specify the amount of time I want between the tracks. If I'm compiling a cd from multiple sources, I can adjust the volume on the tracks so that the cd plays without a need to do so in the listening. I take out pops and clicks, equalize if I want (generally with tape and cdr trades)...I can even do my own dithering, though my anal/geek thing has not risen to that level...yet. I don't know what has replaced the Audiowerks in the musicians' market since emagic went out of business. But it you are of a mind...and can get some software that will suit your needs at a reasonable price...I recommend a fully computer based solution. FWIW...

Speaker cable can be a tough nut because speakers, cables, and amps sometimes interact in unpredictable ways. Shooting from the hip, though, I recommend Kimber 4TC. It's a true audiophile cable ($6-$7 foot?) but it's not highly capacitive and reacts fairly neutrally with a wide range of speakers and amps. Not the ultimate in transparency but you'd probably have to spend more to do audibly better. And if you were going to spend more, you need very good and specific advice with regard to interactivity.

Ditto. We can rejoin ways here, Chuck, though I won't clog the thread. Pharoah for me was '64-'68, w/ Ra, Trane, Cherry, and the Jazz Composer's Orchestra. A singular presence. Have heard nothing like it since, including by Pharoah, though I saw several of the post-Trane bands live, e.g., w/ J.C. Moses, Leon.

Could have been...but Sunny usually played with Byard...they were both from Philly. I have a partner who remembers when Arthur and Byard used to rehearse together in...Byard's?...apartment. Ghost-y sounds wailing through the building... Those are his words. Those were my two favorite alto players back then...when I wasn't listening to Danny Davis...who is probably still my favorite altoist since Eric died. Would've liked to have heard him and Pharoah back in that '64 to '68 window.

Nah...just incoherent.

I assume, though, that the original Blue Notes had the usual RVG separation in their stereo incarnation. Jim S is probably right, though I thought Mosaic pressed from BN masters. I thought that was the way it worked with their BN reissues. Why would they remaster and eliminate the stereo? Or did they press from mono masters and just not tell anyone? I suppose it's moot...

Fire, passion, horn, drive, momentum... But if we have different ears, then that's it. But you and youmustbe write as if the issue is settled. I was there...I'm in the mix...and what you say...I was about to ask you what YOU listen for...except that if you think anything Pharoah did as a leader on Impulse is up to the standard of, say, his solo in "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost"... The answer to free speech you don't like is more free speech. I thought/think something else needed/needs to be said.

We part ways here Ed. For which I am sincerely sorry...since Chuck has been one of the ones...way before we shared thoughts on the internet. Roscoe has been someone for whom I took a long time to come to terms with. I think maybe I was one of the first ones in NYC to buy "Sound". I've got first edition...or first of what was sent to NY...copies of all those first round AACM Delmarks and the early Nessa's...though I slept on "Congliptuous" for awhile. I played "Number 2" for Sunny Murray before he went to Europe for the Actuel thing. The Chicago thing was one of my crusades back then. I didn't warm to "Little Suite" back then. But I wore out "Ornette" and "Sound". I was already carrying Byard and Arthur Jones and Danny Davis around with me like a humongous chip on the shoulder...that's exactly what it was...so when I saw "alto" in the credits I did the folded arms bit...and Roscoe blew me away. What I'm saying is that Albert was the innovator. I think he and Sunny Murray were the last instrumental innovators in jazz...innovators in the sense that Bird gives meaning to the term...though, for the record, no one is quite where Bird...is...that from a '64-'68 Pharoah lover. That language...Albert put it out there, particularly on "Spiritual Unity"...how you actually improvise in that way...make an extended statement. I hear everyone after that...everyone...in that context...including Roscoe. I consider Roscoe to be the last conceptual innovator in jazz. It took me awhile to come to this...decades...but I finally see the AEC as fundamentally Roscoe's innovation. But I had to go back to "Congliptuous" to understand that. Because for me, the AEC was a different thing from the Roscoe Mitchell Art Ensemble. Jarman's presence and impact seemed to me to take the collective thing to another level...and I saw that as Jazz's last real innovation. But eventually "Congliptuous" and "Old/Quartet" forced me to understand that the innovation was in the group before Jarman joined...and that Roscoe was the driver. But in terms of the horns themselves...it was Albert. Chicago had to come to terms with him just like everyone else...though how that happened is a story yet to be told. The Gilmore thing opens another window on that...because there are folks...a lot of them on the Saturn list...who say that Gilmore got there without Albert...that the Arkestra's reed section was doing it before they heard Albert. The dates are tight on this one... I'm still not convinced. But if someone...like Bill Dixon...would comment forthrightly, I'm prepared to revise my...outlook. If anything, I think Marshall may have been the one to anticipate Albert but the devil remains in the details...particularly the chronological ones. These are hairs I find it necessary to split. Albert's horn was it. And I think that spreads to all kinds of unanticipated corners. Like the recent thread on Maupin which invoked Shorter. I love Wayne...but I think the comparison misses the point. You can't talk about Maupin without coming to terms with Albert, even if there was no direct influence. But the relationships you can tease out of that...Gilmore cum Pharoah...Trane looming...cannot be understood in terms of Maupin and Miles. Too much left out... Chuck...I saw Roscoe, Joseph, and Braxton do a saxophone trio thing at the Kitchen...had to be a good 20 years ago. By that time Braxton's rep was in place. Folks took Roscoe for granted and didn't talk at all about Joseph. The last "piece"...they all pulled out their altos and went after one another in pairs. Joseph is actually my favorite but Roscoe one that set. He swallowed Branxton right up...that huge barking, throaty thing...digging in... No dis to Roscoe...who is one of the ones that keeps me alive... Just trying to make an obscure point.

Roscoe's an alto player. He's also an innovator but not as a saxophone soloist. He' just a bad mf. Viz. CJ, like who you wanna. I like Clifford, too. I like Pharoah more. A sense of the man? Pharoah is a down to earth guy. Met him when he was still playing with Trane. I think he's spiritually sincere but my feelings about his playing have little to do with that. A lot of sincere people can't play a lick. I don't see anything crypto about it. Just Impulse's take on how to sell some records. But Pharoah the hell raiser is Pharoah pre "Tauhid". I don't care for that record or any of the other Impulse sides, though I think the soprano solo on "Journey In Satch..."...however you spell that cat's name...is on...like the kind of thing Wayne did when he started playing the little horn. But the solo on "Evolution"...cipher? Huh!

I was at that Slug's gig and several others before Pharoah hooked up with Leon. I remember one of them Tyrone Washington was sitting in. I was looking recently at a Tyrone Washington thread and reading...I think it was Jim Sangry's thoughts about him. I liked that first Blue Note record but in person he was no where near as strong as he sounded in Van Gelder's studio. I remember Monty Waters sitting in with Pharoah around the same time and turning the place out. Matter of fact, Pharoah didn't really take any solos that night and Monty was the closest thing to Arthur Jones I ever heard. And I remember when J.C. was playing drums and some amateur sax player sat in and J.C. chased him off the stand after he started trying to play...I think it was "My Favorite Things". I figure youmustbe is about 10 years older than me. I started going to Slugs in '66. I was there for many of those Sun Ra...I think it was Monday night sets...including one of the ones where they marched out into the middle of 3rd Street at 2-3 in the morning. I saw most of the Sunday afternoon sets...Sam Rivers with Herbie Lewis and Steve Ellington, the "New Conception" band...Sam, Benny Maupin, and Bill Barron as a tenor saxophone trio (w/ rhythm section)...Dewey Redman's trios with Rashied Ali, one of which had Larry Young on organ. I saw Gato Barbieri and Arthur Jones sit in on Sundays...I think different ones. Hip as I was...I asked Arthur if he was Byard Lancaster. I saw Cecil's band with Sam and I saw the one with Frank Wright that preceeded it. And I saw folks like Bobby Hutcherson, Freddie Hubbard, James Spaulding...and Pharoah, both before and after Leon. Youmustbe is very glib with his dismissals from. The Arkestra was "amateurish", Shepp had no talent, Pharoah "ain't anything". I was there. I don't know what he is talking about. I think Pharoah's solos with Trane...particularly "Seattle", "Om", "Meditations", the version of "Naima" on "VV Again", and the version of "Ogunde" from the Olatunji concert...are tour de forces. I listen to that stuff all the time. I think there was a period...brief...from '64 to '68...where Pharoah was the strongest thing out there. I saw Pharoah with Trane three times...twice at the Village Theater. I remember people were jumping out of their seats when he soloed at the December '66 concert. There was a cat that just got out of the service who kept on shouting, "That's BAD!"...Pharoah was playing a silver colored sax, probably a rented horn. Everyone's got their own ears...lord only knows... I suppose if someone thinks Pharoah's solo on "Evolution" from the "Seattle" lp "ain't anything" we're just from different planets. The Gilmore connection...I realize this isn't a Pharoah thread...is important because Gilmore's influence on Pharoah was, IMO, substantial...more so than his influence on Trane. A lot of people copied elements of Pharoah and some of them ended up sounding like Gilmore because that's what happens when you subtract the high frequency multiphonics from some of Pharoah's mid 60's lines. What I heard back then was, e.g., that Benny Maupin was listening to Pharoah. And Maupin sounded a bit like Gilmore at the time though I think the influence was indirect...I'm talking about pre "Tender Moments" Maupin...though come to think of it that solo on "Mode to John" sounds a bit like Gilmore. ...I just put that record on... You can't make any real sense out of Gilmore if you ignore his free playing. He's not just a ringer for the 60's Blue Note crew...someone who could fill Wayne's shoes on a Freddie Hubbard record. But...then...when you start to deal with...Gilmore's decidedly post-Coltrane aspect...then Pharoah comes into the picture and the dispersal of certain stylistic elements...I mean...some of what Gato copied from Pharoah, Pharoah got from playing with the Arkestra...and I suspect that Gato absorbed it from Pharoah without knowing very much about Gilmore or the Arkestra. The most interesting piece may well be Gilmore's relationship with Ayler. They overlapped...and actually played together in Paul Bley's band circa early '64. I probed Bill Dixon about this once but he sort of deflected the question(s)...though there was an answer buried in there. ..."Tender Moments" is a bitch... Benny Maupin, John Stubblefied, Joe Rigby (remember him, youmustbe? played with Milford for a quick minute), George Adams, Michael Brecker, Kenneth Terrode, Gato, Evan Parker...all of them leaned on Pharoah...picking up his stuff before he stopped using it with Leon. You cannot talk about the evolution of the tenor sax after Trane without squarely addressing Gilmore...and Pharoah.

The story is that there was much more composed and arranged orchestral music than what was released on the CBS release. All of the accounts of this that I have read on the internet have been second and third hand. AFAIK, no one has said they have first hand knowledge of this or that they have heard the unedited material or that it definitely still exists in some recorded form. Also, no one seems to know who was in the 11 piece orchestra.

Nomatter how fine McGhee was and nomatter when he appeared on the scene, Fats "showed the way" for following players. After Fats KD was the influence. No dis to McGhee intended. Which is why I hedged my language. Fats was the influence, no doubt. And ultimately the baddest man...after Diz. But Howard got their first, which was not everything but certainly something. And Howard was a bandleader...had Bird as a sideman for a quick minute...whereas Fats did his thing primarily as a sideman. Splitting hairs a bit but I think Maggee deserves it. If you had asked folks who they were listening to for the horn...after Diz...it would have been Fats for sure. But if you asked them in the 40's who...after Diz...would they have expected to be the most important trumpet bandleader in the 50's...who would have been the trumpet version of Art Blakey...most of them would have said Maggee, not Miles, let alone Fats.

The three most important tenor players after Trane - the ones who had the most to do with moving the music forward - were Ayler, Gilmore, and Pharoah. Joe Henderson, Wayne Shorter, George Coleman, Booker Ervin, Rahsaan....Clifford Jordan....Dewey Redman, Sam Rivers...all beautiful players with important things to say. But the ones who really ran with it were Gilmore, Albert, and Pharoah. If you want to talk about who influences the current generation of faceless tenor clones, you might as well say George Coleman...though that's something of an insult to George, who had his own sound, even if the new jacks don't have theirs. The Leon Thomas gig was when Pharoah began to lose his edge...or concede the point. Prime Pharoah is '64 to '68. Cipher? Half the world is still trying to figure out how to play like that. What did Spellman say..."the damndest tenor player in the English language"...that's damn sure what I saw and heard.

Almost all of my McGhee listening is with the 40's material: the Savoy and Dial dates, the material recorded for Modern Music that was issued on a lp called "McGhee Special" (I've seen a cd reissue with quite a bit of extra matierl, though I don't know if it has the same title), and the "Just Jazz" sessions produced, I believe, by Gene Norman. McGhee is the trumpeter of the Dexter Gordon/Wardell Gray material from the Elk's Club in 1947, released on Savoy as "The Hunt". There's also a Fresh Sound cd issued under Sonny Criss's name called "California Boppin' 1947" that has two sets that were actually fronted by McGhee. The one with Wardell Gray - "Grovin' High", "Hot House", and "Bebop" - is, IMO, one of the most spectacular live sets preserved from the 40's. There's more but that's what comes to mind. McGhee is not merely holding his own on these recordings. Historically, he is bop's second major trumpet soloist after Diz and arguably the second most important, if not most influential, bop trumpeter of the 40's, again, after Diz.

There's a quote...I can't find the reference now...from Henderson in which he responds to a question about the tenor players he thought highly of by saying that Gilmore was the one to listen to "when he got it going" or something to that effect. It may be a second hand quote...somebody giving an account of Joe's feelings on other tenor players. Not clear what you mean by "overtone/harmonic thing". Gilmore played ringer for the Shorter-Henderson generation on a few of his 60's sideman recordings - the Hubbard, Hill, and Tyner dates come to mind - but it's probably more accurate to think of him as a contemporary of Trane...someone with an established hard bop resume in the 50's, albeit almost entirely with the Arkestra...rather than part of the post-Trane 60's crew. Gilmore is, among other things, a parallel influence with Trane, a source of some of the things that became common in the 60's, though I hear his influence more explicitly in the players who were known for their free playing - e.g., Pharoah, Kalaparusha - than in the work of Shorter, Henderson, or Coleman (George). Joe was certaily aware of him, though. Shepp was also someone who was hearing Gilmore, though Gilmore's influence there, like many of Shepp's other influences, is buried in the Hawkins-Webster thing and that fragmented phrasing, what someone referred to back then as a "pointilliste approach".

No, I have not heard them. I have seen a list of tapes that Grant presented to a record producer several years ago in anticipation of having them released commerically. The producer auditioned some of the tapes, though I don't know if he auditioned the Blakey-Gilmore material. The information I gave is from the tape list. I believe Verve had contact with Grant prior to the Coltrane-Half Note release. That's as much as I know.

There are two Half Note broadcasts of the edition of the Messengers that included Bartz, Gilmore, Hicks, and Sproles. May 14, 1965 On the Ginza A Nightingale Sang In Berkley Square The Sidewinder Buhania's Delight June 11, 1965 On the Ginza I Can't Get Started With You (feature for Bartz) One By One Theme These are Alan Grant's broadcasts...I'm thinking "Portraits In Jazz"...the same series from which the Coltrane Half Note broadcasts come. Grant has the tapes...or at least had them several years ago. He is the source of the stereo masters that Impulse released of the Trane material, as opposed to Boris Rose's mono recordings of the same broadcasts. To release them one would presumably have to negotiate an agreement with Grant. I am aware of at least 39 broadcasts that were preserved in his archive, not including the Coltrane sessions. But this information is old. I don't know if the tapes still exist or what his position currently is with regard to possible commercial releases. ...and I figure the "Nightingale" title is probably a ringer for something more familiar.

"Way Way Out" is actually the second of the UA albums (recorded in 1963). "Year of the Iron Sheep" was taken from several 1962 sessions.

It's not a comparison that I have a big stake in. I suppose it comes down to your experience and perspective. My perspective was formed in the 60's when I started going out to hear live music. I first heard Bennie and Robin and free players and their more overtly commercial work always struck me as incongruous...not that they didn't do a good job of it. Certainly, they are not identical. But that switch is was what I remember. It was particularly noteworthy at the time since all of the free players were being criticized as people who played that way because they couldn't play anything else. And it was amusing to see that they could do things that seemed...based on first impressions...so totally out of character. The Maupin piece which leaves me in a good place and for which I have nothing comparable from Kenyatta is the tenor work on McCoy's "Tender Moments". That was a surprise...albeit a pleasant one. The Miles cum fusion piece never defined anyone's resume for me, except maybe McLaughlin and Zawinul. I enjoyed "Bitches Brew" but Wayne was was I heard on that record...Bennie sounded more like color in the ensemble. I don't hear anything remarkable in his bass clarinet playing from then...and I like his tenor. It's amazing how people became known for whatever stint they did with Miles, even if they just subbed for Ron Carter. Bennie may have done better work and money wise than Robin but there are enough similarities in their ups and downs to at least make mention...though I wouldn't go overboard. There's an article on what happened to him in an old thread at, http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article.../608270518/1039 I also don't share a lot of the expressed affection for "Mwandishi". I can take it or leave it. That most certainly colors my feelings.

Indeed. Only one alto solo but an interesting and unusual outing. Robin shares alto space with Byard Lancaster on "Metamorphosis", which is the best track on the album IMO. Byard takes the closer, a fast, free rhythm section where he lets loose. Robin takes an earlier, more ballad like solo where he does this kind of free form Johnny Hodges thing. It is very effective, perhaps more so than anything on Rudd's "Everywhere" but in a similar vein. Not too long after that was recorded, I saw Robin at the Dom playing with Milford Graves. He sounded pretty much like he does on the Rudd album. Robin is also in the '65 tracks from the Jazz Composer's Guild Orchestra album on Fontana, though I don't believe he has any solos on that one. The next thing I heard was the Vortex date, which was a disappointment. Then after that I think he did a "Last Tango in Paris" record around the same time that Gato made one. I think Gato's fared better in the marketplace. I experienced Robin, like Bennie Maupin in a neighboring thread, first as a free player who could play but who maybe didn't break out of that pack...for whatever reason. Then he surfaced playing more conventional music and didn't really break out of that pack either. But I really like that solo on "Metamorphosis".

Three... VPI HW 19 Mk III with a Rega RB300 arm and Grado Signature cartridge. That's the only one up and running. Also, Linn LP 12 with an unidentified arm that has to be remounted Phillips 312 I just came by the Linn and haven't used it yet. Haven't unpacked the Phillips in 20 years or so.

Hey...I'm just glad you were able to confirm what I heard. It's always been strange about this set. I think a lot of people were dissatisfied with the audio to some degree but no one has been able to figure our what happened and Mosaic kind of stonewalled the thing. I was wondering whether or not anyone had addressed it with Mosaic but so far it seems that everyone just worked out their own solution. Given what I read when brownsing the ebay madness thread, collecting the original BN vinyl doesn't look like much of an option an this point. Thanks to everyone for the feedback. And, Parkertown, thanks for taking a second listen. I wonder what the hell happened with this set...

? Yes. That's why I described it as virtually mono. There's almost no stereo separation.