Larry Kart

Prior thread on the Modern Jazz and Classical Music Society album, where yours truly blathers/blithers on at some length: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...mp;#entry681545

They're billed as co-authors. Don't see how to tell if one of them in particular was in charge in the passage I quoted. My guess would be that they both were.

Picked this up at the library yesterday, was leafing through, and was stopped dead in my tracks by this (p. 26): "Jazz concepts of form are derived from African music, where improvisation happens within a cycle. In Africa, the cycle is rhythmic. In jazz, the cycle is know as the chorus, and it involves two dimensions: rhythm and harmony. Each tune is a fixed rhythmic length (twelve or sixteen measures, for example) and has its own harmonic progression. Moreover, the two are interlinked." Etc. Leaving aside the oddness/awkwardness to my mind of the phrase "a fixed rhythmic length" (what they mean is "a fixed number of measures"), do they really believe that chorus structure in jazz, with its linkage between rhythm and harmony, is essentially derived from African music? This with the abundance of symmetrical and semi-symmetrical, chorus-structure/ song-form models that can be found in all sorts of, for want of better terms, "Western" or non-African cultures, going way back? Or are they plumping sotto voce for a "Black Athenae" view of things, where everything is really African but the facts have been suppressed?

This, from a good deal later on, is happening too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uVkLanYiSk

Blithering dishwater I get. (Of course, I just bought the CD and heard it). "...but when John Lewis got bitty"? What's "bitty", Larry? "Bitty" -- "made up of unrelated bits, scrappy." Also, though I can't find a source for this, I think there's a connotation of "assembled from bits and pieces in a pretentious manner," which is mostly what I had in mind. "Blithering dishwater" was a little out there. Dishwater is murky, dirty -- that's how the timbres Lewis came up with here sound to me. To "blither" means to speak without making sense; I think that the IMO dishwater-like qualities of this music were the byproducts of compositional blithering. And they were "bitty," too.

Haven't listened to all of it, but based on what I've heard so far, most of this falls into the "let's make weird sounds in the practice room" bag, except when Teo is doing some of his schtick. That is, the prevailing assumption, if you want to push it this far, is that we're being random and/or giving Varese some spacy raw material for him to do with as he will -- no particular "language" feeling/drive on the part of the players that I can detect. Any comparison between this and the Tristano "free-ish" pieces or nascent Cecil or Ornette (different as those three strains may be) strikes me as being as random as this stuff seems.

I'm not a disinterested party, having written the notes (kind of, actually) for Ben's first album (though I did so out of admiration, not mere friendship): http://www.oa2records.com/oa2/artists/arti...hp?Artist_ID=74 but he's a fine young (age 21) player whose heart is in the right place: http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&amp...1g-sx1g1g-sx4g2 http://www.myspace.com/benneuman

That was my impression (though I did kinda like Ronnie Ross' sound), and my copy too soon left the house. In the same vein IMO was "The Modern Jazz and Concert Music Society" (or whatever the title was) disc that Lewis did in the late '50s for Norgran. Some fine players there, including Lucky Thompson, but when John Lewis got bitty, he seemed to lose his orchestral "ear." The charts on that Norgran album are blithering dishwater. On the other hand, his ear is just fine on the roughly contemporaneous "Three Little Feelings" for brass ensemble and Miles, so go figure. Maybe the difference was that on "The Modern Jazz and Concert Music Society" album there were no instrumental doublings, while on "Three Little Feelings" there were of course a lot. The exposed lines on the former are more flaccid than one would think possible. Flaccid, too, was the writing for strings on "European Windows," though that would seem contrary to the thought I just had. My impression -- though I don't have the album, and you'd have to pay me to listen to again -- was that there were basic things about voicing a string ensemble that at that point Lewis just didn't know; either that and/or he wanted to avoid familiar romantic gestures but then didn't know what to do except more or less dessicate them. Please, Larry, would you shut up about this!

The real parallel to Von is Frank Teschemacher. Chicago jazz, don'cha know.

http://www.jazzwax.com./

Multi-part interview with Med from Marc Meyers' Jazz Wax blog: http://www.jazzwax.com/2009/07/interview-m...ory-part-1.html

Great Al Cohn chart there -- "No Thanks." One of the best shout choruses ever.

I thought it would be Elvis Costello.

Great stuff. The details of the personal interaction (or non-interaction) of the MJQ are what one might have guessed, but still.... Interesting mention of Warne Marsh down near the end.

Guys -- before you start a new topic, would you please take a little look-see to make sure that you're not starting a duplicate thread. It's tedious to merge threads, and half the time when I do it I make a mistake and end up with the name of the newer thread taking the place of the prior one, which pisses me off.

Ok -- but can I borrow Krall (or someone who kinda looks like her) for an evening, with an option to renew.

On the other hand, the sheer living reality of Von can be shattering/thrilling/you name it -- if only because, as "Vonski Speaks" abundantly demonstrates, Von is no "roasting chestnuts by an open fire" graybeard in either spirit or deed. He's "all in," doesn't lean on style but on the adventure. That "Darn that Dream" -- good Lord.

Don't know what Nat is smoking these days, but to tout such mediocrity is ridiculous. A little comparative judgment, please! E.g. (though I'm not crazy about all of this) check out what altoist Grace Kelly sounded like with Phil Woods at age 14: I couldn't begin to count the number of players I heard when they were 19 or younger who were far beyond any place that Hailey Niswanger will ever get to -- again IMO.

He's in fine form (with Chuck Israels on bass) on Hampton Hawes' trio album "Here and Now" (OJC), -- remarkably loose and elliptical. I went on a bit about that one recently but can't recall on what thread. P.S. It was on "What are You Listening To?" but I don't know how to track it down amid all those posts.

Bernie Glow, Al Klink and Romeo Penque were based in New York City, not Hollywood.

I've left J.A.W.'s post in place, after correcting the mis-spelling in the original thread title that he noted, because of his link to a previous discussion.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's literally the case. Yes, at least one frequent poster on that forum does include a good deal of the article to which he's drawing attention, but to read the whole thing one needs to click on the link that he supplies. If that fellow notices this post, I would kindly suggest that his "teasers" be a good deal more brief from now on. If he doesn't see this post or chooses not to heed it, I'll follow up more directly.

Your original post, which IIRC only quoted the interview in entirety, was not in my view blown off but merely replaced by a link to the Jazz Wax Blog interview -- this in the name of simple efficiency and to ensure that those interested would travel to Jazz Wax. No slight to you was intended, though I can see where you might feel that way. If so, I apologize, but I thought that taking care of things like this was among a moderator's tasks.

I have removed from this thread the argument (or back and forth) between Ted O'Reilly and Allen Lowe. Please do not continue it.