Larry Kart

Agree about vintage Perkins (with later Perkins being IMO a more or less odd, poignant and meaningful trip). And OK, I suppose, about where Cooper got to being relative to where he was before (which could in a sense be said about anyone) -- but I don't know if you know where Cooper eventually did get to, which if so makes your "walking on a treadmill while riding a train" image rather amorphous. Again, though, only "if so." BTW that 1990 album of Cooper's that I like a lot is "For All We Know" (Fresh Sound") -- one of the label's wholly legit issues, for those who care. Fine late Cooper. too, from 1993, the year of his death, on the "Bob Cooper-Conte Candoli Quintet" (VSOP) -- with a meaty choice of tunes, including "Confirmation," "Tin Tin Deo," "Airegin," "Hackensack," "Ow!," and "Con Alma."

I admire Giuffre, especially on clarinet, and as an often successful adventurer both as a leader and composer, but IMO tenor was not his best instrument, with the possible exception of that odd brief period in 1959-60 when he tried to emulate Rollins (the results there were sort of weird but interesting). On the West Coast at the time that Cooper recording you linked to was made, I found Cooper to be the more satisfying/interesting player -- and again later Cooper grew considerably. Getting back to Giuffre circa 1956-57 on tenor, I can think of a good many tenormen on that scene that I would prefer. Given all of Giuffre's other virtues, on that horn at that time he often seemed to me to be more or less of a huffer and puffer in any "blowing" context (which I know ain't everything, but it is something, and he did make a lot recordings of that sort) and of significant value on tenor only in a relatively abstract "experimental" setting, like that intriguing time-free date he did for Capitol with Jack Sheldon and drummer Artie Anton.

I wasn't at the Lighthouse in its heyday, but "leisure music for the plush ones" sounds quite harsh and off, based on what I've read about that scene and the relation of the music to its actual often rather shaggy, even Five Spot-like (given the place and time) audience there. I pretty much agree with P. Friedman about the virtues of Bob Cooper's tenor playing versus those of Giuffre. Also, Cooper FWIW got even better with age; his final album with Lou Levy and others is quite something IMO.

Although, according to Ted Gioia, Teddy Edwards was the house tenor player before Bob Cooper. Gioia recounts that as the time the tide began to turn, so to speak. Exactly. But the turning of the tide was not racist per se or overtly, I think, but stylistic, though clearly there were some affinities and non-affinites of racial sensibility at work within those stylistic affinities. Also, at least eventually, the Lighthouse-type guys (in the broad sense) were associating in the studios during the days and brought those daytime associations to their nightime associations, and Teddy Edwards et al. were not in the studios. Here Buddy Collete might be thought of as an equivocal figure, though "equivocal" is quite not what I mean. Stylistically he was as "white" if you will as any West Coaster (but that's unfair; musically Colette was just himself), and he had all the reading and doubling/tripling skills for studio work, which he did a lot of. Further, when he encountered overt racism in the studios, in the unions, on TV shows, and elsewhere, Collete very effectively and courageously led the fight against it. And his choice of guys to play with -- as a band member with Chico Hamilton for one and as a leader himself -- seemed to be based on nothing other than the guys with whom he felt comfortable musically.

Bill F -- I think you mean Terry Shannon. On Deuchar's "Pub Crawling," drummer Tony Crombie, who alternates with Seaman, is rather Blakey-esque. Scott for sure dug the Hankenstein. But I still get the feeling that there was a distinctive Dameron-esque strain at work among some of those Brit modernists, at least for a while. It may have been as simple as affinity plus access -- access, in person and on record, being far more haphazard in the late '40s/early '50s than in later years. Did the band with Miles and Tadd that played Paris in 1949 stop over in Britain, or were some key Brits at that Paris festival? Did some of the Brits who came to the U.S. in shipboard bands and stayed for a while to hang out and in some cases study -- as Ronnie Ball, Bruce Turner, and Peter Ind did with Tristano -- catch Tadd's band with Navarro and Allen Eager at the Royal Roost, either in-person or on its frequent radio broadcasts? IIRC and FWIW, a fair number of Brit modernist-inclined critics were also drawn to Dameron's music. Perhaps that was largely because the homegrown guys they dug were into that music, but something tells me that there was just a rhyme in sensibility between Tadd and some strain in the Brisish character. BTW, IIRC another Brit leader and soloist who was heavily into Dameron was tenor saxophonist Kenny Graham.

A quick sampling of that Deuchar shows as much of a Mulligan/West Coast influence as Dameron, IMO, though. Don't agree. Among the soloists, Deuchar is pretty much out of Navarro (strikingly so, but with what I fancy to be a certain individual Scottish flavor), and I don't recall a chart or a piece that isn't fairly Dameron-esque nor any that are West Coast- or Mulligan-like. Two older Brit trumpeters who had some of that flavor I think were Eddie Blair and Bobby Pratt -- the latter two regulars with Ted Heath I believe. All three can be heard to nice effect on composer/arranger Johnny Keating's Dot album "Swinging Scots." Perhaps a sectionman fondness for/need to display a certain brassiness and sheen lay behind their apparent affinity for Navarro over Gillespie or Davis. In particular, not only do I hear some fairly specific Dameron-like manuevers in the pieces and voicings, but the whole mood of the music is what might called lyrical-muscular, and IIRC it's devoid of the contrapuntal or mock-contrapuntal devices that mark much West Coast work of the era. Also, a tenorman as forceful as Tubby Hayes would have blown apart any West Coast date. The ins and outs of what U.S. jazz (especially in the post-war era but earlier on, too) influenced jazzmen in other countries is fascinating. The affinity of the Scandinavians (and some Germans. likes Hans Koller) for the Tristano-ites is one obvious example. Without doubt, in most cases it mostly has to do with something semi-innate in the culture on the receiving end rising up to mate with a particular aspect of the culture on the sending end, so to speak. May seem like these are minor side issues, but they may be revealing of (again, so to speak) larger things. Larry, Though you may not perceive any West Coast Jazz influence on the Jimmy Deuchar session, I certainly hear a West Coast Jazz influence in some of the post-war Scandanavian recordings. I also hear the West Coast influence in some British recordings of early Tommy Whittle , Don Rendell and Ronnie Ross. As for your comment on Tubby Hayes, it should also be remembered that such non-West Coast style players as Sonny Clark and Max Roach were briefly part of the Lighthouse Allstars. Yes, some West Coast influence on post-war Scandinavian recordings after a certain point, but most of the major Scandinavian figures who might seem to be of that sort -- Gullin, Rolf Billberg, Nils Lindberg, Domernus, Gosta Theselius, et al. -- were already themselves. The commonality, such as it was, came about because they derived mostly independently from similar models: Lester Young and the 30's Basie Band sensibility (direct and as filtered the Getz et. al), the Tristano-ites (a very strong force in Scandinavian circles, more so I would say than on the West Coast), and the Miles Davis "Birth of the Cool" Band. FWIW and IMO, the earliest and one of the best BOC-influenced ensembles was the Rolf Ericson Octet that recorded four titles (including "Miles Away," arrangements by Theselius) on Sept. 19, 1950. I should add that I believe that whatever resemblance there might be between the Dave Brubeck/Dave Van Kreidt Octet and the BOC band was an accidental rhyme, not a matter of influence or imitation in either direction. Further, FWIW, I feel that the Gullin of the 1950s was a brilliant soloist and a far more notable player than the Mulligan of the same period was (which is not to disparage Mulligan the composer-arranger nor to say that Mulligan didn't become a stronger soloists later on). As for Clark and Roach with the Lighthouse All-Stars, I think that was more a matter of temporary geographical-economic convenience than deep stylistic affinity. As for Ross, Whittle, Rendell, and other Britishers of that era, again I feel it was a somewhat (though only somewhat) similar situation to the Scandinavian one I mentioned above. That is, those figures were listening to Pres and Pres-derived figures like Getz et al,, and were well on the way to being or becoming their own selves stylistically before West Coast jazz essentially emerged. In other words, the developments were more parallel than a matter of British players picking on on a West Coast vibe. Of course, once the West Coast style became popular, it was natural for Brit players who had developed in a parallel manner to pick up on some of the trimmings -- because they dug them themselves and because audiences were likely to respond to them. To pick a perhaps semi-trivial example, the same reason that Mulligan found Bernie Miller's "Bernie's Tune" an attractive vehicle to blow on would have pertained to, say, Whittle or Rendell -- with the additional factor that Brit audiences that already dug Mulligan would have been pleased to hear it from the home boys.

A quick sampling of that Deuchar shows as much of a Mulligan/West Coast influence as Dameron, IMO, though. Don't agree. Among the soloists, Deuchar is pretty much out of Navarro (strikingly so, but with what I fancy to be a certain individual Scottish flavor), and I don't recall a chart or a piece that isn't fairly Dameron-esque nor any that are West Coast- or Mulligan-like. Two older Brit trumpeters who had some of that flavor I think were Eddie Blair and Bobby Pratt -- the latter two regulars with Ted Heath I believe. All three can be heard to nice effect on composer/arranger Johnny Keating's Dot album "Swinging Scots." Perhaps a sectionman fondness for/need to display a certain brassiness and sheen lay behind their apparent affinity for Navarro over Gillespie or Davis. In particular, not only do I hear some fairly specific Dameron-like manuevers in the pieces and voicings, but the whole mood of the music is what might called lyrical-muscular, and IIRC it's devoid of the contrapuntal or mock-contrapuntal devices that mark much West Coast work of the era. Also, a tenorman as forceful as Tubby Hayes would have blown apart any West Coast date. The ins and outs of what U.S. jazz (especially in the post-war era but earlier on, too) influenced jazzmen in other countries is fascinating. The affinity of the Scandinavians (and some Germans. likes Hans Koller) for the Tristano-ites is one obvious example. Without doubt, in most cases it mostly has to do with something semi-innate in the culture on the receiving end rising up to mate with a particular aspect of the culture on the sending end, so to speak. May seem like these are minor side issues, but they may be revealing of (again, so to speak) larger things.

Some have it as Never PET a Burning Dog. Anyway, my favorite is Pub Crawling With Jimmy Deuchar! Nice album, all titles named after British beers and ales. Interesting example of how strong the Tadd Dameron influence was on British jazzmen (players and composers) of that era, much more so than in the U.S.

Afetr all this time, do we not know the forum rules about linking to bootlegs? In a short while, this thread goes bye-bye.

That's it.

In case anyone really wants to know about "fair use" and not throw it around like a slogan (like so many people do with "free speech"), here's a link -- get it, a link? -- to a very useful guide through the morass: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/index.html

He had been admonished many times, has agreed to never do it again at least once, and has not AFAIK been threatened with banishment until now. (Banishing someone, you should know, is not something I can do myself; that's Jim's decision.) As for 'the policing of this rule being inconsistent," the moderators, despite what you may think, are human beings who have lives to live outside the boundaries of Organissimo, and thus we can't monitor every damn thing on a board that is brimful of posts everyday. We go on what we see ourselves and also rely on the reports/complaints of board members. Speaking for myself, the latter is the case at least half the time. Speaking for myself again, each of Aloc's missteps (or what you will) is like having a toy poodle drop his little craplets on your lawn twice a week while its master stands to one side, either lost in space or with a sly grin on his face (who can say?) It's not the biggest crime in the universe by far, but if you've been enough of a fool to accept the moderator role, it make you wonder what the f--- you're doing and why the f--- you even bother. Welcome to 2012, I guess.

In December alone, Aloc (who is a he) posted copyrighted articles in full seven times. Each offense may or may not seem trivial; the accumulated record of indifference/refusal to pay attention/whatever the hell is going on here -- this despite being warned and having agreed to abide by the forum rules -- is not.

Alocis -- You were warned not too long ago about posting entire articles, which is contrary to forum rules (and that was far from your first offense). You said you would never do that again; you just have. Tell us why you should not be banned from Organissimo forthwith.

My ballot in what used to be the Village Voice Jazz Poll (full results will be posted on Rhapsody.com the second week of January): Best New Releases 1) Warne Marsh-Ted Brown, "Live in Hollywood 1957" (Marshmallow) 2) Anthony Braxton-John McDonough, "6 Duos (Wesleyan) 2006" (Nessa) 3) Roscoe Mitchell, "Before There Was Sound" (Nessa) 4) Chet Baker, "The Sesjun Radio Shows" (Out of the Blue) 5) Les Rois du Fox-Trot, "Fireworks" (Stomp Off) 6) Allen Lowe, "Blues and the Empirical Truth" (Music & Arts) 7) David Binney, "Graylen Epicenter" (Mythology) 8) Bill Carrothers Trio, "A Night at the Village Vanguard" (Pirouet) 9) Alex Sipiagin, "Destinations Unknown" (Criss Cross) 10) Nick Mazzerella Trio, "This Is Only a Test" (Sonichla) Best Reissues 1) Julius Hemphill, "Dogan A.D." (International Phonograph) 2) "The Complete Jimmy Lunceford Decca Sessions" (Mosaic) 3) Von Freeman, "Have No Fear" (Nessa) Best Vocal album No choice Best debut CD No choice Best Latin jazz CD Alexis Cuadrado, "Noneta Iberico" (bju records)

Haven't heard that much of him (some on record, live last year with a small ensemble at the Chicago Jazz Festival (which was grim). Neither his pieces nor his playing have struck me as memorable by the standards of any ragtime composer I'm aware of. Probably the story behind Robinson's McArthur is the same as is the case fairly often there, or so it seems -- he's basically a human-interest story, plus for him there also was the home-town element.

Not wholly pertinent to your question, but this excellent Lee Konitz album, mostly with Swedish musicians, includes a "Lover Man" with the Kenton Orchestra from a concert in Sweden that is an out-of-body experience: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lee-Konitz-Sweden-1951-53-RARE-Jazz-Vinyl-LP-Dragon-/400058309940#ht_1370wt_700

There's some beautiful late Leggio on this Eddie Bert album (though he takes even better solos there than the one on this track): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9nGBYPcf1g

You might have better luck if you spelled his name correctly.

Not that representative of Leggio at his best, I think -- too fast for his melodicism to really shine though. He was a lovely swinging player.

Chewy -- Your dyslexia leaves me sturned.

Also, "Don't touch the mikes!"

We don't do bootlegs here.

Not particularly, to me.