king ubu

Ok, I think I roughly get your point. A moment of confusion surrounded your Hawk/Pres example, as I'd usually put it different, but then in respect to the harmonic/melodic dimension (Pres "floating" easily and detached on top of the chords - horizontal, while Hawk does the vertical outplaying of each and every note that's ok within the given chord). Anyway, I think it makes sense to me what you're saying.

I agree 100% with this statement, despite the fact that I thoroughly enjoy his playing during this period. Some of my favorite drumming of Max's that doesn't seem to get discussed much is his work in JJ Johnson's combos on Columbia, which were compiled in the OOP Mosaic. Very inspired. The quartet date with J.J. and Flanagan? Indeed Max is terrific there - in a league of his own! Yep. There were a few dates with that quartet if I remember correctly. Those are probably my favorite recorded trombone quartet sessions that I've heard since getting into jazz, and Max had alot to do with that! I think the Mosaic has two full CDs from those date(s), but I don't have it at hand... will think of listening to these again as soon as possible!

Finished the Roach set this afternoon - great, those two albums on disc 7! (Also the quintet one on disc 5 with alternates on disc 6 is very, very good!)

Would your use of horizontal vs. vertical fit with Tony Williams' development (from a terrific unorthodox "horizontal" player to a mostly rather boring "vertically oriented" player)? Not sure I get this terminology...

I agree 100% with this statement, despite the fact that I thoroughly enjoy his playing during this period. Some of my favorite drumming of Max's that doesn't seem to get discussed much is his work in JJ Johnson's combos on Columbia, which were compiled in the OOP Mosaic. Very inspired. The quartet date with J.J. and Flanagan? Indeed Max is terrific there - in a league of his own!

revolutionary? I guess so... beyond simple questions of musical stylistics...

I think it all goes together somehow... He's a marcher, he's an intellectual, he was going an organized path all the way (dig how he structures his solos, how he stays in the form, how you can follow him through the changes even in some cases). (And I don't mean the intellectual part in a negative way, of course... just because there's often some kind of vague anti-intellectualism going on hereabouts... I'm not part of that!)

Alex von Schlippenbach looks like a European soap star these days. True... and often he plays the piano as cultivated as you'd expect from a soap star... But criticisms aside, I quite like Rava's quintet, but I don't have the ECM disc - rather plenty of live concert recordings. It's not essential music in any way, but it's a pleasure to listen to, highly enjoyable, with Rava in good voice and no need to show off, rather just enjoying himself playing with a fine young band (Bollani stands out, but often he's replaced by Pozza, another fine pianist... I guess Bollani is too big now himself). The quartet album on ECM with Rudd and "Duo en noir" would be my favourite Rava discs, but then I don't even have his other, most famous ECM album yet...

Another observation about the Turrentines/Priester edition of the Roach quintet: Max seems to loosen up quite a bit by that time. He's still *very* sharp (he always is!) but on some of the bluesier tunes tending in a bit of a "soul jazz" direction (such as the 5/4 groover "As Long As You're Living" or some of the material on the Tommy T Time album), he really lays out a fat groovy bottom that swings almost in the kind of way that Billy Wallace seems to have missed in Roach's playing, I guess...

oops - that would be Priester's featues on the album (the one with Abbey that is) "Moon Faced and Starry Eyed". Anyone has an idea why all these Roach Mercury albums are so darn short and still most contain so many tracks? I mean it's nice to have all these long solos by everyone on each and every track, but with such great bands as Max led during those years, it would have been nice to hear them stretching out some, now and then... also of course it would have been nice to have some more albums by the working bands... the live album from Newport is great (though a bit too exhausting as it's a burning speedy set), if that's an indicator for how the working groups did sound.

No! No! I don't want to love Buddy Rich!!!!! he he... love would be a bit of an exaggeration, indeed... but in the right context (Hell NO, not with Bird & Dizzy & Monk!!!) he can be quite... useful/fine/takeable (make your own choice) (such as the Lionel Hampton w/Peterson dates). Anyway, back on topic: enjoying the shit out of those albums with the Turrentine brothers and Julian Priester. Stanley Turrentine is so good at this early stage of his career! Tommy may not be the greatest technician and doesn't have stealth chops and all, but he's got a way of playing that I think is all his own. I played the "Quiet as it's kept" album, plus the other one (with Abbey Lincoln guesting on two tunes) from the Mosaic, then the Tommy T. Time album, and now getting close to the end of the Enja release from the band's Kaiserslautern 1960 concert - more great playing there! Then I'll end my Roach Mosaic trip with the Paris date on the last disc... and continue with Freedom Now Suite, of course! Oh, and let me put in a good word for Julian Priester! Definitely one of my favourite trombone players of any time and style - his sound is so beautiful (highlights being his features on "Quiet as it's kept", I'd say... but most of his solos on these albums are great)!

Yes, I'm looking forward to hearing Flores in this context! I mostly know him from the Bud Shank Quartet (four albums in the great Shank Pacific Mosaic). So two of those zombie Mosaics made their way to Zurich... I guess that's why everybody thinks we're rich, but God know I am so broke now

Just played the "Quiet As It's Kept" date again (Roach disc 6), as well as the next, instrumental-only, album with the Turrentine/Priester band -very nice! Now on with Tommy T's Time album and possibly the Enja live album and then tomorrow the last of the Mercury albums done in Paris - all nicely in chronological order - fascinating to hear Max's playing evolving over the years!

Yes, I enjoyed it a lot! Looking forward to the answers thread to know what all these things were! Great idea to have so many short tracks, even though there's the risk that some don't really grab the listener, torn out of their larger context (at least I thought maybe that was why I didn't like some of the tracks better).

Admiring the Herman Capitol that just arrived... no listening so far yet, though.

Yeah, here's hope he pulls through this! Edit: I just played parts of Cannonball's "Nippon Soul" on the way home from work - great playing by all, including Joe!

I see I'm not alone with this guess... Hope this won't be too embarassing for me, once the results are out... I shall probably know many of the musicians, though not necessarily many of the discs the tunes have been taken from.

another wild guess, this time on #25: Evan Parker & Joe McPhee?

If that's it, I have it and it's worth getting (CDBaby should have it)!

hm, a guess on #36: Fritz Pauer?

and here's the rest - thanks a lot for this fun compilation, Sir! #20 More euro stuff, I assume? Trumpet is nice, so is flute and the whole sparse waltz-groove. Sounds like a modern day take on some John Lewis ideas to me... #21 Doesn't do that much for me... I guess I'd need to hear more to judge. #22 More Monkish piano... guess you really like piano-centred jazz? The tune's an old one, "Just You, Just Me", and the performance goes quite far at some spots... yet the touch remains delicate most of the time. Nice one, I think... is this one to deceive? Something much older than most of the music on this BFT? Maybe the Monkish touch goes much farther back (I thought of Tatum at some moments)? #23 More tenor trio... sounds vaguely familiar... not bad at all! #24 "What Is This Thing Called Love" again? Definitely like this more than #21... nice one, how he(?) plays the full piano, left hand walking, chords, melody/single-note lines etc. #25 A two tenor free improv? Or is it three? (Would make the Brötzmarksson trio an option, Sonore - but did they ever do such short tunes? I only have live recordings by them.) Hm, no, it's just two... good one, starts very abstract but gets quite beautiful and then some as it continues! #26 Nice programming, I guess (had a break in between, alas). Nice one, these descending runs make for a good structure... #27 More slick programming, back to piano... nice one! #28 An almost seemless segue... into what? An etude? Hm, pretty weird...some moaning in there? Keith Jarrett? Not bad how it evolves! Is this an improvisation based on a classical/notated piece? Quite ok, whatever it is. #29 More slick programming... does this sound familiar? Friedlander? #30 So then here's some more traditional stuff again. Very nice sound on tenor. I've heard this tune before but can't pin it down... Dexter like lines (and phrasing?) but very different sound. Pretty good, but sounds a bit retro-like to me? #31 he he... nice - probably a transcription of some classical piece for soprano/tenor duo? Sounds a lot like some of those Bach things I used to play to practise on tenor... nice, and sounds indeed pretty good! #32 Hm... not going very far. Another one that's more a teaser for more, to me. I'd not be opposed to hear more, though... #33 Again this doesn't go anywhere far to my ears, sorry... it still has something I like, those slightly off lines, the way how the "accompaniment" adds and intervenes with the "melody" or "lead"... #34 Could be Tony Oxley? With Cecil? Could well be them two old farts... good one! #35 A very freeish take of "Thelonious" (I think that's the name of this Monk tune, but I'm not quite sure, as usual with Monk - one of my favourite versions of this one-note theme is on Bud Powell's Columbia album with Monk compositions). Starts rather unmotivated, I found, but gets more and more concentrated as it slowly approaches the theme, touches it from different sides and goes on embellishing and improvising. #36 A groovy and fun closer... that nervously punctuaded accompaniment is quite nice... not sure where to put this, but it's nice one to ease out of an entertaining, at times challenging, but very rewarding compilation of music!

Yes, very sad news. The NYT obit is a bit weird I thought. I read a much shorter in a Swiss newspaper this morning that managed to be a lot more accurate in its appreciation of Hilberg's work. I've had the German translation of "The Desctruction of the European Jews" on the shelves for two years or so now but I haven't felt like reading much in it so far, after having read various excerpts before.

yup

Finishing my listen to the two of Sonny's last Prestige dates with Kenny Dorham (first date), Wade Legge, George Morrow and Max Roach (plus Earl Coleman on two tunes of the second date). This was actually a short-lived edition of the Max Roach quintet with Legge at the piano, otherwise not documented. It's a fine unit, for sure! Rollins is on fire and Roach is great, too! With respect to this post of mine in the Art Davis thread... I don't have that Elvin album yet - it's on my huuuuuge OJC/Fantasy to get list... Probably he was (is? has the news been confirmed in any way by now?) just too strong a musical personality. I mean his walking lines, his timing, all of it is too personal for him to just fit in on any kind of jam session or loosely arranged studio date. With Roach though, he's very inspired and inspiring, I find - much more so than George Morrow, who just happens to play the bass in the band, most of the time, Davis is there, you can feel him at any given moment and he's actively shaping the music, not just accompanying - that's how it feels to me, at least... ... is that there are statements about Morrow in the montage of quotes by musicians/sideman in the Roach Mosaic booklet, that state that he was the only one to really cope with the fast tempos at that time (before Davis joined, that is - no negative words about Boswell, but he's not exactly your greatest bass fiddle virtuoso either, though he did a fine job with what was one of Roach's most underrated bands, in my opinion). There are statements that mention others sitting in, including Oscar Pettiford, and simply being unable to keep the tempo... so Morrow was no slouch, I guess... rather he wasn't a great solo player (not at all... there's one bass feature on the Brown/Roach band, not such a great track, but quite alright), but it seems he's respected by his colleagues if just for his able walking at breakneck tempos. That tempo thing is one of the slight letdowns of these Roach bands, I think - Billy Wallace makes that point (and he seems quite certain that his own circle of musicians in Chicago was far better than the Roach group he played with... I don't think that makes too much sense, speaking of being better musicians, on that level, but I wouldn't doubt Wallace's statements per se). Anyway, the band so often just playing as fast as they can brings a certain sameness to the music that not even guys like Booker Little and the great (underrated? I guess so even if it's a stupid tag and I already used it in this post...) George Coleman can help getting over that. It's possibly some kind of restlessness, that would again make it interesting... a nervousness, a sensitivity? I don't know, though... looking forward to get through the Turrentines band and then on with the "Freedom Now Suite" - the 5/4 opener with Hawkins rough and stunning tenor solo most definitely offers one of those fat swinging grooves that Wallace seemed to miss in the Roach band... maybe it's like Roach has lost that nervous edge, gone a step further around that time (Freedom Now and also Percussion Bitter Suite from 1961)?

discs 6 & 7 of the Sonny Rollins Prestige box - great, these two dates with Legge/Morrow/Roach and KD on the first! Sonny's in top form! I forgot how good they are, revisiting them because of my Roach listening trip...