king ubu

Katanga! Curtis Amy & Dupree Bolton Spinning my Japanese LP again, after many years (had the West Coast Classics CD, passed it one when I got the Select...) Rarely play the vinyl, but as my turtable is spinning already - it's a bitchy one! - I though I'd pop this one one, and needless to say not only the music, but sound quality, too, is great!

Thanks a lot for chiming in, Steve! As the OJCCD is referenced there, I guess the Boplicity brings some more recent research regarding the line-ups (but it may have been prepared earlier than - or in ignorance of - the Stitt Mosaic, hence the likely wrong dates).

Sent in an order but haven't yet heard back... want the Onzy Matthews badly (and am positively surprised to see it selling so well!), have the Tolliver, want the Rich, maybe the Jones (if they had one on the side already... not sure about that, but no biggie if I miss it, have a pair of CDs and an old Capitol LP and I guess that's enough of that, really).

Yeah, saw that 64kbs thing too - but hell, these are old air-checks mostly, so... great chance to listen to some rare stuff!

Listened to the weird Terry albuma again... I can kind of live with the tunes by now, and of course the solo work is as fine as is to be expected with such players involved! The tunes really aren't much though... they don't swing, they're corny as hell... reminds me of the crap I had to play while in the army band...

Wow, thanks for this! Will have to check it out! And PETE BROWN, perfect timing, too!

Happy Birthday! :party:

Happy Birthday! :party:

forgot one thing: some sources give the trumpet player on the second Stitt/Bags date as Willie Wells instead of Russel Jacquet...

Another one... just got the CD, finally... the sessions are listed chaotically in Lord and in Bruyninckx: Bruyninckx' Jackson entry: The first two sessions are #1-6 of the CD (#7-8 stem from the same sessions!) The third session is #9-12 of the CD - and I assume the final two titles just a duplicate listing? The CD then concludes with a Russell Jacquet session, for which Bruyninckx gives the following information: HOWEVER: CD has: - "unknown bass and drums" for that Russell Jacquet session, too! - no date listings at all (Gleason says "at the end of the forties" in his notes) LORD has two sets of entries - the first seems copied from Bruyninckx: - two under "Detroit, May 1947" (Stitt/Bags) and then "Detroit, May 1948" (Jacquet) [looks OK!] - these first Stitt/Bags entries are a mess, they #7-8 of the CD either - they give Will Davis (p) for "3rd Song" (#2), Thompson for the other five of the first six), and have unknown b/d for all six - gives the same rhythm section as Bruyninckx for the Jacquet date (which is listed only once, I think) LORD's second entries look better (though with wronger dates): - all eight tracks grouped in two sessions (#7,3,1,8 and #5,4,6,2 - in that sequence) - Will Davis (p) Jimmy Glover (b) Dave Heard (d) as the rhythm section for #1,3,7,8 (first session) - Ray Brown (b) Max Roach (d) as the rhythm section for #2,4,5,6 (second session) Now, here's what I guess is the best bet on the recording dates (according to Zan Stewart's liner notes in the Stitt Roost Mosaic box): However, Stewart says that "Body and Soul" and "3rd Song" are both from the first session. That again contradicts all the discography entries! What a mess! Does anyone have any more insight here? Are the rhythm section informations reliable? Doesn't really matter too much which of the eight tracks were made in the first or second session, but I'd love to know the line-ups (and I'll stick with Stewart about the dates, I guess).

Oh, I'm so glad to have it! Wonderful, wonderful music! Half of it was on a 2CD set (the Dizzy/OP sessions) and the album with Shirley Horn (of course missing the bonus tracks) was in the LPR/digipack/Originals-series at some time.

Unfortunately, later Ayler tried to put it back together and failed (giving AA the benefit of the doubt). Did he really? How about the live recording from France? This begs the question: what would Coltrane (and Ayler, too) have done, hadn't they died? I wasn't around back then of course, but I somehow get the impression (that might be totally wrong) that this certain type of avantgarde thing had about ran its course in the late 60s. Shepp took some turns, too, Sanders, well... he was an exciting player but without a strong person to play off (that was Trane, of course), he seemed a bit... well, lost not quite, but he too, took a whole different direction (that changed, and I guess nowadays he's one of the big classicists or whatever you may call it... an authoritative, impressive musician for sure!)

There's days when I'm in a cantankerous mood, ya know And I guess I have to agree with the point made so well by Jim: Ayler put something to the fore that you can't go back behind after you've been in the know. Guess it's like with Adam, Eve, the snake and that apple... so I that respect I assume my vote would have to go to Ayler - and I'd question whether Rollins really belongs into the list, under such points of view - again don't get me wrong, I love him, collect his recordings, saw him live... he's a giant and his seemingly endless flow of ideas, this freely-associating mind of his, paired with a delivery that has matured to be as magisterial as was Satchmo's... he's the best! But did he really open up new way to look at "is" in a way that Coltrane or Ayler did? The problem I had here was that I was - before this discussion - looking more for whose sound is reflected in whose playing, who built his conception on whom... but then I guess with the second question we might just as well look Albert and Gary Windo as we might look on Byas and Thompson or Golson.

Seeing the thread title I was hoping first for a Lee Konitz, Jimmy Giuffre and three more Complete Verve Mosaics... ah, blech. Let them who want buy their bits and bytes... not for me.

Might be worth cancelling and pre-ordering with Amazon Italy! http://www.amazon.it/Movin-Complete-Verve-Studio-Recordings/dp/B005CAAUGM/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1317794847&sr=1-1 Yes indeed! They happen to have very good prices on a lot of things, but I still don't regularly check them... have to get used to doing so! Thanks!

"each noisy apeshit tenor player" - Strong words, my friend. Hey you all know I LOVE Ayler and many of the others on jeffcron's little list (not Ware though, sorry). My point was merely that... well, it seemed a bit simple to just call most free/avant players from the 60s and 70s Ayler-influenced. You could just as well call them all Coltrane-influenced and Parker-influenced. But I see that Jeff isn't taking the easy way out: I hear you, but what I mean by "influence" might be different from what you mean. I still contend that Parker, who is indeed very much his own man, and who doesn't really sound like anyone but himself, was influenced by Ayler. It seems to me that Ayler's music, even more than Coltrane's, pointed the way to create a jazz-based music without conventional tonality and regular pulse. That doesn't mean that I think Parker sounds like Ayler. In any case, I'm not alone: John Fordham, from an article on Ayler in The Guardian music blog: The unique sound of British total-improv original Evan Parker still has Ayler inflections.... From Parker's own website: In spite of this major group activity, it is as the creator of a new solo saxophone language, extending the techniques and experiments started by John Coltrane and Albert Ayler, but taking them away from the rhythmically jazz-related areas and into the realm of abstraction, that Evan Parker is perhaps most recognised. I'm disinclined to attempt a response to this. ... so I apologize if my statement might have seemed rude (it wasn't intended thusly at all, again I repeat: I love Ayler and like lots of the others' music, well at least what I know of it, so far). But still... that quote from Parker's website: "extending the techniques and experiments started by John Coltrane and Albert Ayler" - if not them, someone else, if not him, someone else... I don't see (hear) a particular influence there. Saxophone techniques were extended ever since Hawkins got around to learn how to really play, and likely (Prince Robinson?) even before and by others in the same time. Techniques evolve and go on... Jimmy Lyons was a major innovator and one of the most amazing (technically AND musically speaking) saxophone players whose music I've yet witnessed, yet his beginnings are deeply in Bird. And so are Ayler's roots in R&B from the 40s or whenever... and I can't see a line from there to Evan Parker or other European avantgarde players (regardless if they made use of some technical aspects/extensions that Ayler may or may not have introduced or made more widely known).

Ok, thanks to both of you... so the info from Proper is trustable for once, who'd have thunk it!? Next question then: could it still be Pete Brown on alto, or is that ruled out by some reason (like he had a gig in another part of the country, or something? Any details about that in the biography?)

Bruyninckx: Similar to previous meaning: Wynonie "Mr. Blues" Harris and his All-Stars : Wynonie Harris (vcl) acc by Pat Jenkins, Joe Newman (tp) Tab Smith (as) Allen Eager (ts) Larry Belton (bar) Bill Doggett (p) Mary Osborne (g) Al McKibbon (b) Walter Johnson (d) (which is the band from the Nov. 30, 1946 NY Aladdin session) Lord gives mostly unknowns (unknown tp's, ts, bar, p, g, b, d possPete Brown (as) The Harlemaires (vcl group)) - maybe someone could check the latest online version? Then there's the Proper box, which again gives different personnel, but I guess no one would recommend to rely on them: unknown (t) (as) (ts) (bs), probably Chester Slater (p), Billy Butler (g), Percy Joell (b), Dorothea "Dottie" Smith (d), The Harlemaires: Slater, Butler, Joell, Smith (voc). Anyone has any insight there... asking this because I've been checking out the discography of Pete Brown's, following the intriguing discussion in the Hemphill-thread (that hopefully will be moved into a separate thread!)

OK, me again... yes, that's a great session! "Mound Bayou" is nice enough, no matter it's by Feather... Humes is great anyway, and Brown's backing on these tracks is very good! And yes, the band does indeed include Dizzy (or did you just mean he's one of the responders?), as well as Jimmy Hamilton, Sammy Price, Charlie Drayton and Ray Nathan. Helen Humes sings on three tracks (Mound Bayou, Unlucky Woman, (Can't Read, Can't Write) Gonna Buy Me a Telephone), while Nora Lee King sings on the fourth tune (The Cannon Ball). All lyrics on the Humes tunes are by Feather, "Unlucky Blues" is all by Feather (L & C Feather? Who's C?) A friend of mine just ordered one of the Tab Smith Delmarks... got to check that out once he gets it!

So is each noisy apeshit free tenor player showing an Ayler influence? Honestly I'm not so sure... and Ayler went way back, too... there was that amazing piece from Al Sears on a BFT a while ago. Not that far from where Ayler went, I think!

Yes indeed! The Carter session and the ones with Dizzy were the parts I knew before (as well as the nice album with Ronnie Ball). Great to have it all in one place, plenty of wonderful music there!

Ha, why did no one tell me there's a Pete Brown session on Hep's fine "Sounds of Harlem, Vol. 2"? There are also several tracks with Don Stoval on alto (spelled with one"l", it seems - same spelling on the tray card of the CD), first there are two by Joe Brown, and two more adding singer Jewel Paige. Then there's a Sam Price (same as Sammy Price?) date - four tracks with Emmett Berry, J.C. Heard, Stoval and Fess Williams (clarinet & alto). The Pete Brown date is at the very end of the disc, from Feb. 9, 1942, with Dizzy, Jimmy Hamilton, Price and singers Helen Humes (on three) and Nora Lee King (one title). Found the Frankie Newtwon disc... will listen to these now, intrigued - thanks everyone for the various hints and enthusiasm!

This thread has gone so far off topic... the discussions in other threads, mainly the Budd Johnson one, had me pop in Roy Eldridge's Pablo album "What It's All About" - with Norris Turney on alto. I'm not too familiar with him - Randy Weston's "Tanjah" (where he appears next to Budd Johnson, just on the Roy album), and of course lots of late Ellington. Where does he fit in?

Wow, thanks for all the replies, will check out the links (and spotify if it works here) tomorrow! I do have the Frankie Newton Classiscs disc, but damn if I knew where it is right now... will dig for it tomorrow, too. Ha! Make that a big fat line from Poppa Lee to Tony, please!

All the best, Rod! :party: