CJ Shearn

I was the one who said that. Maybe I went a little far, but it was out of admiration for his talent---and frustration that after a certain point he never seemed to care to grow (beyond the single-string thing, for one thing). Great sound, swing, and lyricism though---more than most people will achieve. Thanks fasstrack. Yeah, I listen to him when I wanna hear something in the pocket, and he did rely on licks, but he added so much in the area he excelled at.

Yeah, when Lyle's first record came out, what was the reaction to it at the time? Was it considered just another "fusion" record? I was only 4 years old back then, and didn't hear it until my early 20's. The records I had at 4 years old were "The Sermon", "Houseparty", hard bop type stuff. Theres a few aspects, maybe Alex Acuna's drumming that are reminiscent of Weather Report but there is a whole other thing going on. I love the counterpoint between Johnson and Frisell on "Slink", so hip. Alex's drumming on there is a precursor to my ears towards Sanchez's rhythmic concept in the Group. Lyle is great on "Later that Evening", I agree, only heard it once though.

To reply to Randy, I think that's absolutely right, Pat doesn't have to worry about the same issues as Benson. For one, Benson does not own his own masters and his own production company. If he did, he could release a jazz project and then R&B project, and satisfy everyone. Also, while the PMG stuff sounds shiny on the surface, it's always deceptively complex; long, winding forms, lots of complex harmonies, and time changes. Actually, on "Speaking of Now" (Antonio Sanchez's first album with Pat) a lot of tunes have meter changes so transparent you don't notice them. "The Way Up" and "Imaginary Day" are two of the more challenging PMG albums around, and in the early days, especially live, it was not uncommon (as the two excellent fan made compilations, the Metheny Group Companion's) for the Group to engage in straight ahead, free playing and the more traditional Group thing in one show. More recently Pat's been incorporating this kind of thing on his solo albums, the Unity Band format he feels especially with the addition of Italy based Giulio Carmassi, who sings, plays keyboards, trumpet, saxophone, trombone, bass and drums, that he can play anything from the Group, "Song X", and "Secret Story" in addition to new material. Since we discussed Lyle too, one of his best compositional efforts in the PMG is "Episode D'Azur" which is a modern extended form bop masterpiece, on "We Live Here", which many people consider too smooth b/c of the drum loops, but that tune has a lot of Lyle's orchestrational gifts as I mentioned earlier. From the live We Live Here DVD, which has the tune a bit more stripped down. The DVD has been reissued I understand with a way to watch the concert without the interviews.

7/4, it's unfortunate isn't it? He prefers it that way, I think. I generally hesitate to bring his name up in these parts because his recorded output as a leader is so small, and he generally is thought of as a Evans/Jarrett clone, which is unfair. Outside of Metheny fandom and synth nerds, he's not really thought of as anything, I seem to notice. Lyle's contributions I think are pretty big because I hear quite a bit of influence in younger pianists like Mehldau, and John Escreet, and his efforts in terms of integrating synths and acoustic piano are so innovative. For me, after Joe Zawinul, he's the most important jazz musician to investigate the possibilities of synthesizers. While Zawinul's an influence in the orchestration aspects, Lyle's approach in creating new, organic sounds and his knowledge of 20th century composers, created a vocabulary that's pretty vast, and he's one of the most inventive improvisers. His self titled album still kills me, every time I hear it. It's in regular rotation Most important, his influence on the shape of the Metheny Group sound, he and Pat are so tied together that in Pat's own projects, Lyle's influence is heard and felt clearly. I'm sure he consults with Lyle on many things. Jim Alfredson, who is a big admirer of Lyle said to me once, that debut album really holds up because it's in an area not many people continue to explore. All three of his Geffen era WB remasters are excellent and worth getting, too. Starting a thread on Lyle would be a interesting idea, see what kind of responses he garners.

Tina Brooks. I paid luckily $35 for a legit copy of Tony Williams "Tokyo Live". It seems the John Patton Mosaic Select goes for crazy prices these days. I paid around $25 each for all 4 "One Night with Blue Note" CD's. I got lucky in acquiring the Japanese only JOS releases for reasonable prices, $15 for a water damaged "Jimmy Smith Trio+LD". The Herbie Hancock trio CD's on Sony were pretty expensive to acquire, and it seems Mulgrew Miller is pretty expensive to collect these days. I do not collect anything on Steeplechase or CrissCross, all rather expensive.

Lyle made a high profile appearance at TED in 2011 playing music using algorhythms, using a program he designed. It was a very unique set of music. He has interests in architecture, programming, mathematics and pool. He's also been playing with his quintet over the past year with his neice on vocals. He's supposed to make a new album, which I'm sure will be under the Metheny Group Productions banner and released on Nonesuch most likely if it happens.

The risk for Pat is continued balking from PMG fans who have an inability to accept his other interests in different projects. Unity Band and the trio are considered too "straight ahead" (whatever that means) the continued Orchestrion use is too weird for a lot of people. The Orchestrion is really no different than when Pat used the Synclavier 25 years ago, or the Roland GR300 the past 30 years. They are all just tools. People understandably want to hear the Group get back together and constantly fear it's demise. The Unity Basnd may be the new PMG, time will tell. Pat's said Lyle Mays is enjoying the multitude of interests (the guy really is a genius) outside of music and Steve Rodby is producing many artists, in addition to sharing production duties with Pat. I think they'll get back to it when they get back to it, and if others want the PMG so bad, listen to any of the 15 records, that's what I do. Pat and Lyle have continued to write but I think the economic situation prevents them from another 150-200 concert tour. I've always been able to enjoy whatever context Pat chooses so this project is exciting to me.

Pat does what he wants as an artist, when he wants and this is just a continuation of that. Has he had accessible records? of course, but not ever catering to commercial tastes on purpose. Since "Song X" he's owned the rights to all his masters, and Nonesuch is just a distributor, as were Geffen and Warner. When he initially proposed "Orchestrion", Nonesuch was reluctant to release it, but Bob Hurwitz at Nonesuch has been an artistic advisor for him ever since he was on ECM. "Tap" was recorded at Pat's home studio, and next year he plans on a new Unity Band (redubbed Unity Group) album, and then a long awaited PMG project. Preordered "Tap" last night at Amazon, $15.97 seems a bit high for a Nonesuch release (considering they abandoned the slip covered jewel cases and instead use mini LP sleeves), but this is a Nonesuch/Tzadik co release apparently. Tzadik has a lot of special editions, I'm wondering if they are releasing their own version of it.

There's been so much discussion on GG here over the years. The most recent thread, I recall someone saying (I don't necessarily agree) that Grant was lazy, that he never pushed himself to widen his vocabulary. What he did do, his single note lines were damn fine, and he could just groove like crazy in the pocket. I read he was overly impressed by Benson, but it's definitely true Benson was influenced by him.

Well it will be nice to have 6 similar pieces on the forthcoming record b/c I don't own any Zorn or Book of Angels yet!

Yes and wonder what Road Shows Vol. 3 has in store for us. I still need to pick up Volume 2.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a very unusual and intriguing set. It takes stamina in the same way "Ascension" or "Live in Japan" or Brotzmann does. He hasn't done much in the way of something extremely out since "Faith Healer" on the live trio record, but things on The Orchestrion Project like "80/81-Broadway Blues" and "Improvisation #2" (though it's structured free improv) are out there.

Also on the Nonesuch page and Pat's site. This is not a joke, at all, Amazon has it listed too.

Out May 21st. I'm in Nonesuch Records and Tzadik simultaneously release guitarist Pat Metheny’s recording of John Zorn’s Tap: The Book of Angels, Vol. 20 from Zorn’s Masada Book Two on May 21, 2013. This album is the first collaboration between the two artists, considered among their generation’s most innovative musicians. Besides his frequent collaborator, drummer Antonio Sanchez, Metheny plays all other instruments—guitars, sitar, tiples, bass, keyboards, orchestrionics, electronics, bandoneón, percussion, flugelhorn, and more—himself. Beginning in the 1990s, Zorn wrote 500 songs inspired by traditional Jewish music; they came to be known as two volumes of the Masada Book. He performed the first 200 songs of Book One with the rotating members of the Masada ensemble for a decade before writing Book Two’s 300 tunes in just three months. Over the past eight years, the songs from Book Two have been recorded as volumes of The Book of Angels by a stellar group of musicians, including the Masada Quintet, Masada String Trio, Medeski Martin & Wood, and Marc Ribot. Zorn says of Metheny’s recording, “Pat is of course a living legend—one of those rare lights in the universe. His incredible facility and dedication, indefatigable energy and focus, imagination, and never-ending curiosity have distinguished him as truly one of the greatest musicians on the planet.” He continues, “Tap is a showcase for Pat’s remarkable imagination, technique, passion, and love for the world. No matter how many times I listen to this recording I am hit with that same sense of exhilaration that hit me the very first time.” Metheny, who recently won his 20th Grammy Award, adds, “I have admired John Zorn since the late ’70s and have followed his amazing output every step of the way. A few years ago, after contacting me to write some notes for one of his Arcana publications, John and I began an inspired e-mail connection. (As hard as it is to believe, we had never met in person over the years.) I mentioned that I had followed his Book of Angels series from the start and felt like I might be able to contribute something unique to the collection. With his enthusiastic encouragement, he gave me some suggestions as to which tunes were still unrecorded, and I picked the ones that jumped out and spoke to me. Over the next year, in between breaks from the road, I recorded them one by one in my home studio whenever I got a chance.” Tap: The Book of Angels, Vol. 20 Mastema Albim Tharsis Sariel Phanuel Hurmiz

Dave Binney is awesome! though we know what Sweet Poppa Lou thinks!

I might add that "New Life", is one of the greatest tunes Metheny's never written. The record, if I may go off track a bit, really shows Metheny's influence on a big way on Antonio without him doing a lavish imitation of it. A lot of complexity under the accessible melodies with harmonic and rhythm shifts. The influence of Pat is there in the production too, utilizing over dubbing, and other effects to make the sound larger although not quite as dense as Pat's records. That density is something I've always loved about Pat, although it's too much for some.

I've heard a few tunes off of it, "Ding Dong Day" is a really cute tune, I like it. I have heard Frisell in context of some of the Zorn stuff , the first two Lyle Mays albums, and a few of his Nonesuch releases, and "Bass Desires". He's a player I need to listen to more. I've always loved his tone. I wish the organ trio he led with Sam Yahel and Brian Blade made a record because, that clip in "Icons Among Us" was smoking.

I like the way you put that, "dealing with that specific dialect of music". That's pretty smart, imo. It neither minimizes nor exaggerates the intent and/or accomplishment of same. Even if it's not a dialect that I myself make sure I have all the time in the world to listen to, I can still dig that it exists, why it exists, and who is doing what with it. Thanks for that objectivity of observation, for real. I like the way you put that, "dealing with that specific dialect of music". That's pretty smart, imo. It neither minimizes nor exaggerates the intent and/or accomplishment of same. Even if it's not a dialect that I myself make sure I have all the time in the world to listen to, I can still dig that it exists, why it exists, and who is doing what with it. Thanks for that objectivity of observation, for real. You are welcome Well, it's true, there is a certain vocabulary there in that kind of music that a certain type of player deals with. Mark Turner to some degree deals with this as well, and his influence is strongly felt on other players. The music on Antonio Sanchez's first couple of albums for example, really deals with that aesthethic which is still, as you like to say part of the New York thing, but there is something different about it. Antonio's new one is more a composition record than a "blowing" one, but that identity is still there. McCaslin, Potter, David Sanchez, etc are perfect for that.

In the sense of a complete genre free musician, and in the manner he uses the guitar in new ways puts him in a similar place to Pat Metheny to me. They share the Midwest thing too, although it's hard for me to grasp where Bill is headed. His playing on "Lyle Mays" is phenomenal use of different colors and textures, and he was also an ideal partner for Lyle's thing.

Donny McCaslin is a real good player. I have yet to pick up any of leader dates but he's very strong on the new Antonio Sanchez album. He's a good post Potter player dealing with that specific dialect of music.

The three I have all from the BNLA series (Hutcherson, Ronnie Foster and Grant Green) sound very nice and are nice packages. The photo of Bobby is horrible but I like that cover design better than the redesigned domestic cover for Hutcherson at Montreux. Although, considering how detail oriented Japanese releases are, shouldn't the stylized "b" on some of the CD designs be black instead of white? I haven't seen for example, the "Blue Note Live at the Roxy" CD reissues yet, but the original LP's have the black "b". I know, ultimately minor, but just curious.

Bobby Hutcherson "Live At Montreux" for me, with "Dialogue", "Happenings", and "Components" is one of my favorites. It may be my favorite Hutcherson. Count me in as also not being a huge fan of the Hutchersoon Mosaic Select, I regret having sold it, but "Cirrus" and "Inner Glow" were my favorite albums from that set. "Knucklebean" is good too but I honestly don't remember it much after listening. Maybe my stance on RVG's is rationalization because I built up a strong collection of Blue Note's I never owned previously, especially the formerly OOP and Conn titles, but I'm thankful the series existed.

Poo is great. Theres a real interesting documentary on him on Youtube.

That's why I never post there Kevin, just lurk I even saw some strange reactions to the Wilder remastered Davis catalog there.

I never picked up that disc for that reason, b/c the RVG was reportedly so bad. I never understood why people over at Hoffman had issues with the RVG's of "Midnight Special" and "Back At the Chicken Shack", they sound so much better than the old McMasters. I suppose that's the best we'll get until HD Tracks (I still haven't heard those and want "Speak No Evil" from that batch, although right now I have no sound from my computer) or Music Matters does them. The RVG's are superior for organ dates IMO.