Raneyjr

I'm done. He's had his say and now I've had mine

It's not really a question of the right to express an opinion. Ofcourse he can say whatever the hell he wants as can anyone else. It's really intent on his part to sort of publicly draw a line in the sand to say "you know what, Evans ain't all that". I think that tone is pretty clear. So I am taking my own opportunity to publicly rebut this position in the same spirit so long as the subject remains alive on boards. My perception of this is really also colored by another diatribe he did on one of his album jacket where he went into all this same deal on Evans. Don't have it in hand but I remember reading it. So it's a soapbox subject for him. All the philosophical layers peeled away I think this is a simple matter, he feels insulted for being compared to Evans and being indirectly negated or demoted by the critics who seek to place him as influenced, a disciple or in general "under" Evans. In other words, talk about me. Not him. Mehldau is talented and has monster skills, there is no denying that, but the extent that he pursues this points to a petty narrative that really won't help his music or his audience. But let's get into the real details as long as we're at it. In terms of the album "he never even listened to". Can you imagine a more cogent ass kicking and timeless solo than Bill's on My Funny Valentine? Or his comping concept behind Jim Hall? Who was doing that then in 1962? Nobody. I talked about that album with Jim. He said that "it was like Bill was inside my brain". It's a masterstroke. There is a full-bodied concept to what Evans does from start to finish. Meldhau can often drift from concept to concept in search of something within a solo. Not always. but often. Like for example on some live ballads. Where you give him the floor and he does these halting phrases- where he consciously avoids the downbeat as a concept (he is trying to imitate singers who backphrase) but doesn't make too many definitive statements, then at the end he goes hog wild into tangental themes and variations. Use Evans "Alfie" from Montreux II as a counter-reference. That is perfection. He knows what he's doing every moment and bursting with earthy feeling throughout with complete weaving between his head rendition and his integrated solo. Even if he prepared a lot of it. The music is alive. nothing anybody including meldhau could play comes close. If you're a man you tip your cap and say, "Bill, you've got it." There is something he can learn from Evans in that regard. Sure there is shit that Meldhau can do technically that few pianists including Evans could ever do but there is a lot there that he's taking for granted. Sometimes the simple difference between someone who knocks you out and someone who leaves you cold is what's going on in their head, not their fingers.

The whole conversation drove off of the Metheny/Mehldau project and it's "potential" precursor, Undercurrents with Hall/Evans. So instead of respect for the record (regardless of inspiration yes or no) it got 'uh... I never listened to that record" (ergo it must not be worth listening to ) and the "overrated" "no influence" on me (Brad) conversation. The pedestal that Evans is on is deserved. Mischaracterizations of influence on Meldhau aside. Why couldn't he just say, "...many people claim that he is my primary influence and it's not true. I know that many other pianists are in fact influenced by him, I just don't happened to be one of them, at least consciously " nuff said. No he has to go about picking apart the whole notion because he's offended that he is somehow "beneath" Evans or "indebted". It's prideful nonsense. I respect Brad's work and development even though I'm not really a fan, but this whole track he has taken just makes me less of a fan if I could be and dislike his whole vibe and ego. The fact is that the Metheny/Mehldau effort does/will never come close to the timeless stature of Hall/Evans Undercurrents (now 60 years old and still fresh). They will learn that once their mutual admiration society and self-plugging stops. Also damning was Metheny's seeming downgrade of Evans for the purpose of the interview. Given I know and respect him it sort of bothers me. He referred to him as a "good" piano player. Is that why he and Mays dedicated/wrote a song about him. Would countless musicians (including great ones) be inclined to do similar things, make dedication albums, concerts and indicate his stature if he was just "good"? So everybody is under this blue mist and doesn't no the truth that Evans is just a "good piano" player? C'mon. Anyway, time wounds all heels

Nice record. Jimmy plays nicely on Dolphin Dance and also does a very good job with Enigma. Al Haig was playing with a harder touch then for some reason but plays good for sure. They still made a good team. I think the problem with the bass was the recording, Jamil sounds fine and so does Frank. Choice recordings always sound the worst and you can't judge a group's sound by them. The music was good, and that's the main thing. That was Al's working group, I believe, with Jimmy as add-on. I should say Jamil was Al's regular bass player at a gig at Gregory's. I think Eddie Diehl was on the gig on guitar. 70s sometime. Chuck Wayne also played in that group but I'm not sure who played when. The record reflected a reunion of sorts. There was another record Special Brew and a concert at Carnegie Recital Hall that I was in attendance for (I was 12). At that point Dad and Al were pretty friendly and resumed their long piano hopping walks where Al would drop in on all the showroom owners and play. Al also gave Doug his first playing opportunities at Gregory's. Doug sat in on Strings Attached on "Out of Nowhere". My father didn't want him to do it because he thought it was too early in his career to be recording (he had only been playing jazz for a few years at that point). In agree with the assessment of the sound. Not good engineering on this one. Although I find the recording of bass on records in the 70s generally to be lousy. This was during a period in the 70s where bassists were demanding a lot more solo time cranking up their amps, and engineers were also cranking them up in the mix and not getting a good balance. It always sounds like TWANG. TWANGLIA etc to me. It really bogs down the swing in my view

Thanks for stopping in Jon. I always find your posts interesting, no matter what forum they're on. Which other one are you on? All about Jazz or the usenet board?

Yeah listening to critics in any of the arts is probably dumb. Often they are frustrated musicians or artists. Other times just ignorant but have a lot of superficial knowledge. You listen to what other respected artists have to say. Sometimes lay people that are just good listeners are the best to listen to. Right. he always said he wanted to sound like he's blowing (like a saxophone). Doug does it to. Check out the video of Doug. You see it in his cheeks: I'm pretty sure dad liked Warne's playing. I have an audio of some of the live concert from the 80s with Dad, Warne and Lou Levy I understand what you're saying. When I say restraint I mean in the sense of players who don't just jump on every idea that pops into their head. Players who use space, show thought and them come in with an even more subtle idea. I think listeners often miss the more subtle guys. There is something to be said for players that give it to you with the kitchen sink. But it's not the only way to play. In ref to listen louder. I think many players often play louder out of insecurity. Try to compensate for content with volume.

I like kittens and puppies. Perhaps that's the difference. If Miles could say that Bill plays the piano like it should be should be played and on Bill's death, said "I'll miss Bill. I won't get to hear him play Alfie, anymore" (or something like that) that's enough confirmation for me that there is something beyond the superficial going on. I understand that some people like the more aggressive Bill as evidenced by his sideman work. In all candor, I actually like the period of his playing from 58 to early 59 and wish he hadn't abandoned much of the personal bebop approach he was developing at that point. For example his work on Modern Art and East Coasting are incredible in my view. Anyway this thread re: Bill not my cup of tea morphed from Lenny not my cup of tea could become an equine in the gutter and probably deserves it's own post rather than on Dad's.

Wow, if you or some others hear Evans as a cold player, I'm not sure what to say The guy plays ballads in such a way, with such purity that it's difficult to imagine a more moving jazz listening experience. Haunted Heart, Danny Boy, Blue in Green. Take your pick. But in terms of Lennie's influence, it's very apparent in his period from 1956 and some other recordings which require a harder edge (like George Russell stuff) but he was already transitioning out of this by 1958. The conception being the fast "single right hand line" approach influenced in part by by Lennie's famous solos such as "Lineup". I think that was on everyone's turntable for a while. Other guys doing similar things were Horace Silver and Eddie Costa. In terms of Lennie's style not being my father's bag or cold etc. You know some critic's considered my father's style a little cold. As ridiculous as that sounds. I think the term "cold" probably requires very specific language. Some people term restraint as "cold" and prefer "exuberance" which could be termed warm (Cannonball would be an example of that). For me I subscribe to my father's approach to artistry and those whom he admired, which is certain amount of latent energy. That requires a great deal of maturity as an artist. To walk the tightrope between withholding or calculating too much and overplaying or worse, delivering the obvious. His closest relationship with that school is with Lee. He knew him, respected him, played with him, was influenced in some ways by him and had some difficulties with him. Nite I'm not sure how many Gibson models he had. If think one was stolen and one was purchased legitimately by a collector. That model is featured here on my forum Doug is more on top of these things honestly because he's a little older. I am currently in possesion of his Fender and Doug his Hoffner.

If you did hear that piece, Suite for Guitar Quintet, you would hear it immediately. Quartet #5. It's a nice performance, BTW. Jimmy in good shape. Strings were out of tune I thought (string players, not guitar strings) and I would've liked to hear it done over. But still it's a good piece and worth hearing. I had it on a Muse LP: Strings and Swings. The other side (that really dates me, I know) is a concert in Louisville with his friend Jack Brengle on bass and Bobby Jones on tenor. Jon, if you read this again please comment. I for one would appreciate your insights and stories. I'm sure others on here would as well. You can do a much better job talking about your dad and cronies than a guy who took a few lessons and hung around him as a kid, and briefly at that. Ok, Joel. I got a little break at work and I know that you're eager to hear my views on this. In reference to Bartok, Joel you're right on the money. It was String Qt #5, that was most infuential to him although he liked them all. I'm pretty sure I have his original pocket score for it if anecdotes are not proof enough:) He was studying with Hall Overton at the time. He was a big fan of Bartok, late Beethoven and the great Ravel/Debussy quartets that are almost always paired together. So his original intention was to write a string quartet. It became a suite. The recording date for it 1957 is accurate however the Louisville concert date on the other side I'm almost certain is not. My recollection is 1967. His child sweetheart Ola Miracle arranged that concert. They were gigging together that year. Dad was still struggling with his addiction and a recent separation. In terms of the intonation on Suite. Yeah the guitar sounds flat in relation to the strings, (I'm listening to it in my head, haven't heard it years given no turntable). It might be a tall order because string players play in tune in ref to each other and then the guitar comes in and gotta keep the best solo takes. Maybe it's Dad's fault:) Remember the Storyville Cuts, he was a bit flat there so... Mr. Raney can be a human at times:) You can tell the influence on his classical studies on his 50s recordings, in terms of his arranging style. Generally speaking by the 70s, with the exception of some favorite artists almost listened exclusively to classical especially Beethoven, Bach and Bartok and not jazz. In reference to Tristano. A friend of mine took a lesson from him. He said he arrived in his pad and the lights were off and he was sitting in the corner at the piano. This was a test of both his balls and his ear I guess My father was not a big fan of Tristano's playing btw. No offense to fans of him. Just not Dad's cup of tea. Or at least not his favs list. He thought he was a very cold player. Bud Powell and Bill Evans were his favorites. He liked Lee Konitz though and the tune Lee is for the most part dedicated to his style of writing. See you guys later. Jon