Simon Weil

Well, the other thing that you can say - and I think, but can't prove - is that the change in the music reflects the change in Society that happened at about that time. I mean, in particular, the Watts riots in Summer 1965 represent a watershed - kind of the beginning of the end for the peaceful civil rights movement. I do, myself, think there is some connection between the peace evoked by Love Supreme and the awful nature of Om and those events. But I don't think Coltrane was any sort of Black Power person. Simon Weil

I think the voice of frustration speaks...Loudly and in pain. Simon Weil

Thanks, guys... Simon Weil

I'm really going to drop myself in it now. But anyway...I think Om is supposed to be this really intense spiritual experience, rather than an enjoyable listening to Jazz one. I mean, I feel a bit like I'm getting beaten over the head with a mallet at times. You see, if you take the view that he's trying to evoke the voice of God at the Dawn of Creation (which is what the sleevenotes say), then, evidently, this is a bit outside your standard Jazz fan's experience (understatement). I have this vision of it as like confronting the face of God (face of God/Voice of God at the Dawn of Creation, same difference). This is evidently an awesome and overwhelming experience - which one can only do for so long. But I think there ought probably to be some unbearability in the music as well (because one should not really be able to look God in the face). Anyway that's my rationalization for how I experience this music. Simon Weil [Thanks Ubu, enjoying it too]

Just to look at the stillness thing. There are, it now occurs to me, rather profound connections between Yoga and stillness - and Aum is a classic chant in Yoga. For example: In terms of Om and Live In Seattle, one of those tracks has someone chanting Om right in the middle of it. In terms of on the record about LSD stuff, nobody knows. It does sound very much as though JC experimented with it at some point. Seems like you're looking into alt versions of spirituality, AB. Simon Weil

Gawd knows...I mean he was definitely trying to reach some other zones via sound. To me there is a kind of thing to do with Om as scary massive primal sound that pervades a lot of his later work. A thing to do with awe and massiveness, and, if you will, confronting the face of God. But there is a kind of stilllness in some of it(even in that flute passage in Om) which is at odds with all of the burn-out stuff. May be (probably is) a spiritually based reason for it... Simon Weil

See, I'm only looking at Yogananda from a researcher's point of view, AB. You probably have a closer, more spiritual, "insider's" view. Anyway, there are a quite a few quotes in "Autobiography of a Yogi" that basically say that Om (=Aum) underlies "the oneness of life" Thus: “...The creative voice of God I heard resounding as Aum[note see below], the vibration of the Cosmic Motor.” p167-8 [Note p167-8] “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” John 1:1 “...the threefold nature of God as Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Sat, Tat, Aum in the Hindu scriptures). God the Father is the Absolute, Unmanifested, existing beyond vibratory creation. God the Son is the Christ Consciousness (Brahma or Kutastha Chaitanya) existing within vibratory creation; this Christ Consciousness is the “only begotten” or sole reflection of the Uncreated Infinite. The outward manifestation of the omnipresent Christ Consciousness, its “witness” (Revelation 3:14), is Aum, the Word or Holy Ghost; invisible divine power, the only doer, the sole causative and activating force that upholds all creation through vibration. Aum the blissful Comforter is heard in meditation and reveals to the devotee the ultimate Truth, bringing “all things to...remembrance.” Note 168-9 “... nature is an objectification of Aum, the Primal Sound or Vibratory Word.... p182 “...the ancient sage Patanjali, foremost exponent of yoga...speaks of God as the actual Cosmic Sound of Aum that is heard in meditation. Aum is the Creative Word. The whir of Vibratiory Motor, the witness [see note below] of Divine Presence.” p277 The idea of a unifying spiritual force is important to Coltrane. Simon Weil

I'm still listening to this and don't really know it that well - but, in terms of spirituality, I think it's likely he was getting it out of Paramahansa Yogananda's _Autobiography of a Yoga_. Coltrane had this book, and PY's name often comes up in anectdotes about JC. The description of Om in the sleevenotes is kind of a fusion of Christian ideas about The Word Of God at the beginning of Creation and Om, the Indian conception of the primal sound - which is basically what PY does in his book. The actual recited text on the track is from the Bhaghavad Gita (translated by Prabhavananda/Isherwood). Coltrane seems to have been on an Indian kick earlier in 1965, naming his newly born son Ravi after Ravi Shankar. There's a haunting flute passage in Om, which seems strangely anticlimatic after the burn-out stuff at the beginning - but I'm wondering if this might be some attempt to evoke: "Krishna, an incarantion of Vishnu [who] is shown in Hindu art with a flute; on it he plays the enraptured song that recalls to their true home the human sould wandering in maya-delusion." Autobiography of a Yoga/Paramahansa Yogananda p182 There's quite a lot of stuff in Coltrane's spirituality that looks like it might have been affected by Indian conceptions - and he did have quite an interest in Indian music. But it's quite hard pin down exactly. Simon Weil

If it ever does become a problem to post copyrighted news reports (it is mostly news reports that get posted), I'm sure there'll be warning. Probably lots of warning. Law suits cost money and warnings don't (really). But if Jim feels easier without this material here, I have no problem letting it go. I mean, Organissimo provides us a fine place to post - and if we can do something in return, sure. Given the babe thread, this seems kind of moot though. Simon Weil

I know the first "proper" Jazz record I got was A Love Supreme, and I'm wondering if that is because (at least in part) Coltrane's whole thing was a quest. Like my whole interaction with Jazz is a quest - and the thing spoke to me out of that. So, maybe that is part of why Coltrane is so popular in general. A Love Supreme as a cornerstone of the Jazz quest. Simon Weil

Well, as a thread, i.e. a nice fun bit for discussion there was nothing wrong with it. But as I tried to point out here: If I take "Cornerstones" as part of the way we seek to bring people into Jazz, then it's not an entirely constructive approach. I'm saying that because "Cornerstones" is, as far as I can see, part of how Jazz tries to bring people in (100 essential LPs etc). I.E. I think there is a deeper issue underlying this thread, about whether our current ways of bringing people into Jazz are that effective. I mean one only has to look at Wynton Marsalis, symbol of Jazz now, with his canonic "Important Records That Are Good For YOU" approach, to see it in operation. And he's not allowed to be symbolic without that having some resonance in Jazz at large. I suppose what I'm getting at is that, if the experiencing of Jazz, for the fan, is kind of a quest (which it seems to be for a lot of us), maybe Jazz might make better connections with the public at large by aiding people to make their specific quest rather than going with the more impersonal "These Records Are Good For You". To get deadly serious (not the intent of this thread, I know)... Simon Weil

Of course there is a certain tension between turning people onto Jazz and giving them recordings central to the History of Jazz. And when I capitalize History of Jazz, I mean to imply that there is a certain didactic element in that which people may not appreciate so much. Kind of "Here is an important record, listen to it". I've never been much good at turning people onto Jazz (I was much better at turning people onto Rock), perhaps that's because the thing is so much like a spiritual quest to me, listening to it. Very personal. Just occasionally I will hit upon a good record, because I know the person and sense that this would be the thing for them (e.g. an Akura Dixon record for my sister in law). Kind of Blue is the obvious record for this sort of thing, and I have been successful with that. Partly it's a great record - but I think it also speaks to us now. Being the biggest-selling Jazz record means it is THE cornerstone record of Jazz in a certain way. But I think the peculiar melancholy of it is something that may not play so well at other times. Billie Holiday is another like that. Hot Fives and Hot Sevens is universal, for me. Simon Weil

'Course, if it doesn't come I'll probably owe you $24.15... Simon Weil

The Mary Parks story does ring true to me. I can see him smashing his horn over the TV set. That's the image that stays with me. I think there's a truth in it. No matter what the precise details of Albert's motivation. Simon Weil

The $24.15 one on Gemm is from Mundo in Japan. I bought a copy of Cosmic Music for about the same from a dealer in Japan via Gemm a couple of years ago. I think it was Mundo. Took maybe 10 days to the UK. Simon Weil

This is a very good record. You won't regret buying it. Have A Little Faith is good too, but not this good. Simon Weil

Well, it may be that for this anniversary issue, they wanted big names as far as the eye can see, in every direction and all the nooks and crannies as well. MAJOR ISSUE, SELF-IMPORTANT, BIG NAMES ONLY As it were... Simon Weil

I think this name recognition thing is a big factor in magazines (as in culture in general). In the 90s, I got an article accepted for a Jewish magazine, only for the editor to change. The article, of course, did not appear. The new editor changed the "vibe" of the mag towards a slicker approach and the next editor went all the way. Now all the contributors are "names" of one sort or another - and to prove it, little bulletin resumes of who they are is given at the top of each article. It seems like, in a certain way, they're selling on name-dropping: "Look I read an article by Lewis P. Levi...." Doesn't matter about the content, look at the list of names.... There still is worthwhile stuff in it, but blaaagh... Another variant on the culture of celebrity. Simon Weil

I'm guessing it means that by having Nora etc, Bluenote have prevented the EMI top brass looking at the whole record label as "niche and underperforming". That "niche and underperforming" phrase hit me as well. I mean, talk about encapsulating the difference between having the top brass being accountants or decision makers of some other sort. They don't seem to observe that, from the point of view of a musician, underperforming is someone who doesn't get out and play enough. They might as well be talking about a line of frozen peas. Nora J is outperforming on her studio efforts. Simon Weil

I think that's the point. It's not a test, it's an illustration of how we actually read. Simon Weil

3. How embarassing. I think the explanation is right. In that I skim-read it for F's..and skimmed right over the "ofs". Mind you I was always bloody useless at English. Didn't speak till I was 3. Oh, there's that number again. It took a real effort to find the last F too. Simon Weil

I agree with a lot Clifford Thornton's post - i.e. a lot of the basic characterizations. But....There is a kind of discontinuity between denying "progressivist" notions (which is what Post-Modernism does) and being avant-garde, in that you can hardly be at the front of something that doesn't believe in moving forward. I guess, at this stage, avant-garde more or less means whatever is the Dangerous New Thing in Art just now. Still, I'm inclined to think that 60s Jazz avant-garde and early 20c visual art avant-garde did do something irrevocably shattering, which our current avant-garde doesn't. Basically they discovered a new world. Simon Weil [but I'm not familiar with the ICP so maybe I'm missing the point.]

The speed of change in Jazz - I mean from inception ca 1900 to avant-garde ca 1965 - is amazing. I guess I'd say that the first 20+ years of that maybe fit the post-modern paradigm, in that the forms of Jazz seem to flow in and out of other black forms. That feels kind of related to what you're saying. I do think that once the heroic soloists get going, with Armstrong and Bechet, then that breaks the paradigm, in that post-modernism seems to question the very idea of heroism in art. Another thing is that Jazz isn't, in general, about the finished work of art - You don't paint your masterpiece and stick it on the wall and have people come and admire it - which is what Modernism art revolves around. It is a performance art (obviously) - Once a solo is played it's gone. But "performance art" as generally understood, is a description of a particular post-modern form of visual art - where people watch this process happening, and then it's gone. Yeah, I think impermanence is a significant aspect of Post-Modernism that appears in Jazz. I guess that's what you're getting at, in part. Actually Sun Ra probably does have pastichy kind of postmodern elements in him (I also don't know him that well, but that's how it seems). I think there was irony in there. But I think Mingus is kind of like the post-impressionists. I mean, I remember going to the Van Gogh centenary exhibition in Amsterdam and seeing the massive crowds and being amazed they could go for something with quite such blazing colours and disturbing content. But the thing was it was all contained within, more-or-less comprehensible, form. All the distortions and colour were understood as expressionistic devices the artist had used to articulate his inner struggles. So I think Mingus is like that, in that he uses all sort of expressionistic extentions of familiar Jazz forms - and people can grasp that and run with it, whereas they can't really grasp Cecil Taylor, who came after. I think there is irony in Mingus, for sure. But it's a heavy, barbed weapon with (I guess) a political agenda. Post-Modern irony is different, kind of lighter, without that sort of belief.... Yup there is pastiche in Mingus too... I think Wynton is Post-Modernist and doesn't know it. Irony is pretty alien to him. So he does pastiche and eclecticism and doesn't know that it's that. My sister used to work for a marketing organisation, and she once got this project to devise some campaign or another. So she and her co-workers came up with these different styles for the campaign. They devised two which they thought would be OK, and then, just for fun, devised a third which was like a pastiche of all the various "classical" styles they could think of - and called it "classic" as a kind of in-joke with their client. They weren't seriously thinking of doing a campaign with their joke classic style...Trouble was....The customer decided their "classic" style was just great, not realising it was in fact a spoof. It demanded that my sister and her mates do the whole campaign in classic style. And they had to do it. I think there is something in styles of once it's played (out), it's gone. Simon Weil

Well, thanks for saying that Chuck. I do appreciate it - and, indeed it is true the reason I was on the BNBB and now here is because Chuck suggested it. I wasn't trying to be insulting. I wasn't really even sure where Chuck was coming from. I guess I'd say my sense of humour has been stripped away from me in the intellectual threads by all the flak that I've taken over the years. I mean my general sense of humour remains, but in these threads I've just taken so many sideways comments and digs and what have you - some of which I dare say appeared humourous to the posters - that, well I'm touchy and aggressive and tend to expect the worst. So that's about it... I felt threatened because I respect Chuck and reacted aggressively. Simon Weil

Well there's Modernism and there's Modern. I mean Modernism is a period of art history. Just to talk about visual art because I'm more familiar with that - starts maybe with the Impressionists mid 19th century, goes on to the Post-Impressionists (late 19th C) and then Cubism, Abstract Art, Expressionism etc ca 1900-1914. And that last period would be, for me, classic avant-garde visual art. People like Ayler and Cecil Taylor I associate with that 1910-14 period in art, kind of dealing with the same sort of problems in Jazz as Picasso et al dealt with in visual art - basically moving further and further away from standard forms. I guess Hill would be Modernist but not avant-garde in that way. There's a whole lot of stuff I wrote about Cecil Taylor and Picasso in this thread. But I'm not really up on what these terms mean in a wider perspective. Simon Weil [Edit: I always associate Mingus with Post-Impressionism, kind of like Van Gogh or something. So I guess Bop would be the first Modernist Form in Jazz - equivalent to Impressionism. I'm not sure where Andrew Hill fits in, though.]